www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

Well this fellow just did. I have also heard it from RC's with whom I have spoken before, and I have seen it online before. Now, not very often have I heard this, so I am not really convinced that the Novus Ordo can be held responsible for it, all I am saying is that Tridentine Catholics often levy this charge (which may be unfounded) and so imagine my surprise when this fellow Francis comes along and says it!

Anastasios

Counsellor, please study the difference between "Constructive criticism" and "destructive criticism". People often give their opinions on specifics that they find objectionable...whether the church is RC, EC, or EO. They object to a change of wording, and point out why the older usage appealled to them more. They object to the number and type of services, and suggest that a return to usage that involves a full cycle of services would be better...

But in every case, they say, specifically "I believe it would be better to change this, or return to that" They do not object to everything in broad, general terms as you appear to have done. Several have politely pointed out that it isn't WHAT you say, but HOW you are saying it.

Perhaps if you read some posts on older threads, you might get an idea of the Forum's style for criticizing things. It is difficult to be a newbie and instantly fit in, style-wise.

Gaudior, who hopes that you take the above seriously

I am glad I don't mean that these people are denying the Real Presence, but only that I have met--in some very limited numbers--RC's who think the Mass is the symbolic representing of the Last Supper, not the representation of the Passion of Christ, that's all.

In Christ,

Anastasios

Did he? Where did he say "symbolic"?

I don't think he meant that when he used the word "re-create."

I meant no offense, and took none

Just for the record.....for all who are trying to figure out what Roman Catholics think on this subject...I'm just one Roman Catholic, but here are my "two cents"

I believe that many Roman Catholics are not fully aware of the depths of their own Church's teachings. That's too bad, because, it's just as true whether they believe it or not....and if they don't know it, they are missing out on the riches that could be theirs....

At Mass, during the consecration, I guess I combine the images of the last supper, the Mass, and the and the death of Christ in my mind...because the last supper(like the Mass and the passion and death of Our Lord) is Jesus giving us His body and blood...

The rich way in which this is portrayed in the Novus Ordo Mass is food for thought, reflection, meditation, and prayer. It is a good and blessed way to celebrate the liturgy....

Please....I believe your liturgy is fine...please believe that mine is too...thanks!

UIC

Dear UIC,

I'm glad we cleared that up

Like I said in my other post, I have been in Slovakia and seen very impressive Novus Ordo Masses. Also seen some nice ones in Wash. DC.

Anastasios

Jennifer,

I must admit a certain amazement that a thread 6 pages in length generated within 16hrs. Reading time is limited and my practice is to not post on things that I haven't read - so, I was compelled to do so and really don't know why I did. Except that I found it rather incredible that a thread was opened to complain of being called to task by John for an inappropriate tone in posting. Grow up - this isn't kindergarten.

As to your point that we should be out "poaching" Latins, as several others have already pointed out, there are a variety of reasons why we shouldn't do this. Let me take it a step further, none of which I say to embarass you, but to bring you to a realization of the Eastern Catholic Churches that is often lacking among our Latin sisters and brothers.

We of the East appreciate interest in us and in our liturgical traditions, but we want to and must be understood and appreciated for ourselves, not as an antidote to what disaffected Latins perceive as wrong in their own Church.

The Novus Ordo Mass is neither less authentic nor holy than the Tridentine Mass; each, as a service of worship directed to God, has its own intrinsic holiness when served faithfully and reverently. To the extent that abuses exist within either, they must needs be addressed; but the form is only that - an external; ultimately, worship comes from within oneself, one's heart and soul.

I'd be so bold as to suggest that you need to rethink your motivations for looking East. As someone who was a cradle Latin, but has been within the fold of my Church for 40 years at this point, I am comfortable telling you that you are not someone who, in your present state of mind and with your attitude, I would welcome to my church as a new parishioner.

What happens when we don't live up to your expectations? You're an angry, unhappy, disruptive person and that isn't what our Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, are all about.

Beyond that, I think that you have missed a very basic concept that is inherent in this community. We discuss things, including differences, because we are diverse folks here - Eastern and Oriental Catholics and Orthodox, Latin Catholics, and Protestants as well, but the focus is on the East - it is what brought us together.

If you want to take issue with matters Latin, I suggest you do so at the Catholic Answers forum, or any one of the many other boards where that is the norm. This isn't the place; it's not what we are about. Rejoin us when you are interested in the East for what it is, not what you want it to be.

I realize that this post may sound uncharitable, I prefer to think of it as reality-based.

Many years,

Neil, who seriously prays for this thread to end

Jennifer, I agree with you 100%. Being an Italian, let me use a food analogy. The Tridentine Mass (in my opinion) was like
a fine steak. Then the Modernists came along,
took the steak, and ground it up into
hamburger. Now, a hamburger CAN BE
tasty and nutritious if properly prepared
and served, but no matter what you do to
the hamburger, it ain't never gonna be the
steak that it once was............

The Traditionalists I have talked with do make the claim that the Novus Ordo over-emphasizes the mass as the Lord's Supper. They also claim that Paul VI was such a unity-maniac, that this over emphasis was deliberate, to make the mass less objectionable to Protestants. Was this Paul's intent? I have no idea. But if you see craziness in the U.S. that you don't see in Europe, then it is probably the fault of the U.S. bishops who allow abuses in the mass. An aside, just for information, I recently read in the RC diocesan newspaper that the RC Bishop of Knoxville has mandated reverential silence at certain points in the mass as well as before and afterwards. Now that was nice to read!

Friends,

How might we best fulfill our calling to be the "Light of the East" to our Roman Catholic friends? I'm not so much asking the tonal question. We can debate that until the cows come home and have not reached any conclusions. One persons onerinous is another persons calm disinterested response. I don't see how one gets around that. But the substance of the thread is the general, though not universal, opininion that 1. There is something not quite right with the Novus Ordo; 2. There's not much we can do directly about that problem; and 3. We have problems of our own. But there is something missing if that is all that's concluded.

How do we will fulfill Pope John Paul's instruction in "Light of the East" to be a witness to our Roman Catholic brethren in this area? Clearly the best way is to build temples that are truly Eastern, offer the very best Divine Liturgy possible, develop choirs, and invite people to come and see what the Lord is doing. I believe for many of us we have a very long way to go.

Dan L

I think by reclaiming your heritage you can show latin Catholics that it is possible to be traditional and have a liturgy in the vernacular.

The liturgies in your churches (and I say "your" because this thread has taught me that I'm not a part of you) teach western Catholics that it was possible to reform the liturgy and keep it traditional at the same time.

"How do we will fulfill Pope John Paul's instruction in "Light of the East" to be a witness to our Roman Catholic brethren in this area? Clearly the best way is to build temples that are truly Eastern, offer the very best Divine Liturgy possible, develop choirs, and invite people to come and see what the Lord is doing. I believe for many of us we have a very long way to go.

Dan L"

Agreed!

I think by reclaiming your heritage you can show latin Catholics that it is possible to be traditional and have a liturgy in the vernacular.

The liturgies in your churches (and I say "your" because this thread has taught me that I'm not a part of you) teach western Catholics that it was possible to reform the liturgy and keep it traditional at the same time. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You aren't headed to the Protestants are you?

Dan L

I don't believe the point of Eastern worship is to "show" the Latins anything, but rather to worship God in the most appropriate manner.

Gaudior, who thinks a bit more care needs to be taken with your words, Counsellor...

You aren't headed to the Protestants are you?

Dan L [/QB][/QUOTE]

I was on track to become Orthodox. I was attending an Orthodox Church. But I couldn't make up my mind. I think that my Eastern Catholic 'thing' was kind of a last ditch effort to stay in communion with Rome.

I'm going back to that and we'll see how things work out.