www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

Jennifer,

Being rather interested in liturgical matters could you make a comment about your experiences at Annunciation. My limited experiences comparing Orthodox not in communion with Rome's liturgy and ours teaches me that in many ways we are clearly Orthodox. With some of the experiences I've had in Orthodox Churches there is more compromise with Latin liturgy there than what we have at Annunciation. How do you see it?

Dan L

Dan, I think your church is abolutely beautiful and your liturgy is Orthodox.

I think your pews are a problem as the vast majority of people sat during the liturgy. But of course the Orthodox have the same problem.

I was impressed that they included all of the litanies.

You know, Jennifer, I wouldn't mind if you stated a clear list of your concerns, and let us try to explain how we (Eastern Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox) differ and/or agree on certain points...

I just hardly know how to jump in and say anything, but I'd hate to see you cut us off without a fair length of time for discussion....

I hope that we can work together toward Unity In Christ...

I don't know, UIC. It's just that I've been going through this for YEARS. Literally, years. I was a catachumen in an Orthodox church about five years ago but changed my mind because I liked my RC parish and felt a close relationship with its pastor.

By this point, I know all the arguments. I've read the books. I've talked to the priests.

Some conclusions I've come to:

1 - I prefer the eastern liturgies of the Church.
2 - I think that eastern spirituality is more 'agreeable' to my spirit.
3 - On line discussions are rarely beneficial as people can easily misunderstand one another.
4 - The current model of the papacy didn't exist in the early Church.

I was advised that this forum is a bit weird so in good conscience I can't say that because I don't like the discussion here that I can't be an Eastern Catholic. That would be stupid.

But in reading the discussions here I can't help but think of what the Orthodox say about Eastern Catholics. Truthfully, the responses here (and I can't articulate what I mean, it's more of a *feeling* than anything else) make me think that they're right.

Jennifer:

It is not useful to be pedantic, even in a court of law.

Many a time this leads to generalization with all its emptiness.

As a Roman Catholic, I should feel aggrieved by your insults directed at our Church but my feelings are assuaged by the shallow, or lack of, knowledge on your part.

You are in the Archdiocese of Chicago of which I am personally proud of. It's the 2nd largest in the U.S. and I think our clergy and faithful are up to par with the "ideals" of a Christian community.

Please don't display the inadequacies in the formation of your Catholic faith.

Amado

I gather that you mean the EC's mission of trying to return to the whole Church to what it was before 1054 is wrong headed. I suppose an Orthodox priest would think that especially if his turf was threatened. When I joined the BC Church Father Loya reminded me that I was entering the community of martyrs. If we fail in our mission we cease to exist. If we succeed in our mission we cease to exist. But if we succeed it will mean that the integrity of both lungs of the Church is insured and both lungs are in communion with the other. Our methodology may not be perfect but as they say, "I appreciate more what we are doing than what the Orthodox and Roman Catholics aren't doing."

Dan Lauffer

No, I think that you're right to try to return the Church to where it was in 1054.

But that will necessarily entail being a witness to traditional catholicism. However, it will be nearly impossible for you to be that kind of a witness if so many of you have your heads in the sand about the state of Catholicism in America.

One must never act on "feelings" what happens when feelings are no longer there? You have a shipwreck of faith, which I have seen in many lives. It is a fatal mistake.
Feelings or in the spiritual life "consolations" are good, when and if God grants them, but one should never never base their spiritual life or theological belief on them.
Stephanos I

Dear Jennifer,

Well, I find it odd that you get upset by being charged with criticizing the RC Church, only to turn around and get upset by my question about the papacy.

You said the early Church didn't understand the Papacy as it is today.

That's fine. The Church didn't understand a lot of things the way it does today. So what?

And Orthodoxy affirmed the Primacy of Rome in the first millenium of the united Church - but doesn't any longer.

Your point is . . .?

As others here have said, this is NOT the place to go after the RC Church or its liturgy.

You don't like it, then you don't like it.

We have our own Byzantine fish to fry and we welcome our Latin Catholic friends on our own journey to discover the riches of the Christian East.

For me, communion with Rome is a gospel imperative.

The Faith never puts conditions on our acceptance of it or of the Church.

There is nothing that says "belong to the Church IF the Church does this or that, and, if not, then . . ."

I'm sorry if I've come across, as I fear I have, as being uncharitable toward you.

But for me as a Ukrainian Catholic, the Roman Catholic Church is something I will stand up for as well.

I will also stand up for Orthodoxy.

I just like standing up, I suppose . . .

God bless you and guide you on your way.

You won't hear from me again, I promise.

Alex

Jennifer,

I don't think that there is anyone on this forum who has their head in the sand about American Catholicism. There are many on this board and on the Catholic Defender board who are quite clear that they expect a schism within their life times unless the next pope can discipline effectively. They expect that much of what is called American Catholicism will go the way of Anglicanism. The true Church will remain faithful. The Eastern Church, I have no doubt, will work only with those who remain faithful.

Dan L

Dear Jennifer:

I have sat on this sidelines of this discussion in a genuine attempt to discern your purpose and, quite frankly, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that you are looking for a Latin- or Rome-bashing forum.

When the other forum members did not bite, you lashed out at them and said that you now understood the apparently derogatory things some big-O Orthodox may say about us EC's.

Please believe me when I tell you that my purpose is not to offend but, rather, to tell you that everyone here is sympathetic to what you feel.

You are searching for an ideal - the perfect "forms" of which Plato spoke.

You want the Church to be a perfect picture and reflection of Christ.

Guess what? We ALL do.

However, we all must also be humble enough to know that the Church, as it exists on Earth, cannot be perfect in every way becasue its existence on Earth was entrusted to us in our as-yet imperfect state.

When we see our brothers and sisters in a different Rite doing something we don't like, we must first look to ourselves to make sure we first are "doing it right" according to our own traditions.

If you admit that we in the East have more work to do to "clean up" and/or more fully perfect our Rite, then how can we be expected to lob stones into the Latin Rite's proverbial backyard?

Starting a cross-ritual migration is not the answer, either. Note the "two longs" analogy.

Believe me when I tell you that your sentiment is a shared one. But it is only love and respect (as opposed to mutual "dissing") that will bring us closer to the ideal toward which we all stive.

Yours,

hal

Dear Hal,

Now why can't all lawyers be like you?

Alex

Dear Hal, Esq.:

That's one heck of an advice from one Chicago lawyer to another.

Amado

Thank you Gentlemen, very much.

Dear Amado,

Congratulations on your 1500th post!

I can't believe no one else has yet complimented you on so many posts!

Wherever do you find the time to post so much here?

Be careful not to become too addicted to the Forum . . .

That would not be a good thing . . .

Alex