www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Criticizing the Roman Catholic Church

And I support their right to express their feelings.

Alex, I'm sorry but that sounds like the people on Talk Radio here in America who say to be opposed to Bush is to be unAmerican. I belive that a Catholic has the right to express his or her feelings about the turn his or her Church is taking. I don't think it's right to say the Novus Ordo is heretical. But to say it was a mistake is a legitimate opinion.

This is a non-sequitor. Papal infallibility--as you well know--does not mean the Pope can't make a mistake. The papacy made a mistake when it sacked Constantinople in 1204 or during the Renaissance Popes, but that doesn't mean Christ wasn't there.

You know what, Alex, I support your right to say this. And of course, I disagree.

If she indeed believes the NO to be heretical as a Catholic, I would agree. But if all she is saying is in her opinion it was wrong to switch liturgies, she finds herself in great company with many Catholics, including Cardinal Ratzinger, who in his book Spirit of the Liturgy does not go so far as to say the NO was a mistake but admits that many of its features have gone away from the original intent (which I think was admirable) and constructively offers suggestions on how to fix them (like I did).

Alex, from someone who venerates St Charles the Royal Martyr, who was an Anglican, and has issued praise for Jan Hus, I am going to have to take that with a grain of salt. I'm not saying it's wrong for you to do either (I think St Charles was pretty cool myself and Hus had some good points) but to then turn around and relegate your opponent to the status of "nearly non-Catholic" seems a bit too far.

Anastasios

I am a Roman Catholic who came into the Church with Novus Ordo already in place. I belong to a nice, quiet, conservative parish, and I like it

Vatican II did make some constructive, organic changes to the Roman Mass. Paul VI, in my opinion one of the most befuddled and ineffectual popes of all time, promulgated the Novus Ordo. Don't blame Vatican II for the Novus Ordo, since the council had been over for several years by the time Paul VI issued the Novus Ordo. Many priests and bishops said at the time it wasn't needed. However, I have seen and still see priests who celebrate it reverently and don't take license with all the available options in it. Every Sunday at the RC where I play, the two priests do a good job of offering the best masses they can with sincerity and personal holiness.

Jennifer, how do you feel about the way the Roman liturgy is done on EWTN?

That is exactly what my wife and I witnessed when we went to liturgy in Slovakia. Very nice Novus Ordo Masses there.

Anastasios

May I say that the New Mass can have merit and beauty when said per the intent of Vat.II, as I have posted the example of Fr. Fessio.

The American Bishops are slow to react to the guidelines released by Rome, maybe there is some hard feelings due to the rejection of their revised Psalms (incusive language)etc.

Alex & many are correct in saying don't flee due to negative feelings, which I've been told by a few Orthodox priests a few times, and was asked by them, have I tried to help in the remedy or just stated opinions without works, which really got me thinking.

Like many here, I was truly unaware of the East until a couple of years ago, but was lead to the knowledge for a reason, its figuring out the reason that is difficult.

james

Dear Alex,

Who da man?
You da man!
You da OrthoCatholic Latin Apologetics man!

Thank You for your posts! Are you sure you're feeling OK today?

I promised myself I would not get into Roman Church deliberations on this forum again. This is an Eastern forum and I come here to learn about the Eastern Church. I am comfortable in the Roman Church, it is my heritage, and I no longer wish to defend it at every turn. I have learned much about the Eastern Church and implement parts of it into my prayer life, occasionally attend the Divine Liturgy and come away richer from my Eastern experiences. My soul is at peace where I am right now and I thank God every day for the faith He has given me.


Dear Jennifer,

I realize you are right now searching for what you need to deepen and satisfy your own faith. I pray the Holy Spirit guide you and be with you always.

In Christ, Bill

I was referring to what Mike reported and what several others said of their conversations as well. Nastiness is not pious.

Dan L

I was lucky enough to attend a good conservative RC parish for about 4 years. The liturgy was very reverent. The music was good and traditional. In short, it was everything the Novus Ordo could be.

However, there was still something wrong with it. At that time I started attending the latin Mass too. Comparing the two liturgies it became obvious to me that the NO wasn't as reverent as the latin Mass. I watched parishioners at the conservative parish struggle with beliefs in the real presence. Keep in mind this was a great parish that had weekly benediction. But I was told by people at this parish (active people who came to everything) that it didn't really matter where you went to church. I was also told that the homily was the most important part of the Mass followed by the handshake of peace. The majority of the parish didn't confess regularly. This priest preached on the real presence and the need for regular almost all of the time. Something clearly was working against his efforts to teach the Catholic faith. It had to be the Mass.

My family sojourns in a Roman parish and our experience is the opposite. It's the 3rd largest parish in the Diocese and all the priests are faithful to what the Church teaches. Most of the time Mass is sung a capella by the priest and people.

As to Confession. If you're not there a half hour early expect to be in line for over an hour. (Two priests serve the confessionals). I've actually stood in line for an hour and was unable to confess because it was time for Mass to begin.

So, I'd say it's not the Mass.

Jennifer, I just can't understand how you can draw this conclusion.... there are not only two options as to why there might have been problems in the parish-- 1. The preaching 2. The Mass

There are many reasons why the people may be feeling and speaking the way you described....perhaps the catechetical program is inadequate, perhaps the school is not teaching the faith well, perhaps the worst parts of the American Catholic culture have simply made inroads here...perhaps the priest you speak of hasn't been there long enough to make a difference....

Just because people are not living their faith well doesn't make the faith wrong. Just because the people in the RC parishes in the United States may not always live as they should, doesn't mean that their liturgy is inadequate...if it did, then perhaps the liturgy should be revised whenever the people go wrong....

May the Lord guide you, Jennifer as you seek for true Unity In Christ

The only difference between the people at this parish and the people at the latin Mass parish was the Mass.

This was a fairly conservative, somewhat rural area. The diocese was off the beaten path so there were no whacko churches. This was not "Amchurch." These were good people who tried really hard to be good Catholics.

I must admit that I'm shocked to read defenses of the current liturgy.

Not only am I shocked, I'm disappointed. Traditional Catholics make an effort to understand the Byzantine Catholic liturgies. When they can't attend a latin Mass, they go to an Eastern Catholic Church. Because they know that what we worship is what we believe. Eastern Catholics who also attend a traditional liturgy should also understand why this is important.

I frankly do understand how any traditional Catholic can ignore the problems with the Novus Ordo.

So, do you feel the Mass on EWTN is not reverent enough?

Here we go again. For a board with so many of the "Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome" bent I find it poor that when a Roman Catholic criticizes the Roman Catholic Church (or some aspect of it) the Orthodox are to blame.

Someone's 'doxing Lord, Kumbaya...