www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology What does all this have to do with faith?

Okay.

Time for STUPID CONVERT QUESTIONS.

I am currently reading "THE TRUTH" by Clark Carlton and "ASCENDING THE HEIGHTS" by Fr. John Mack. Both of these books I find quite depressing to read. Perhaps someone will have some enlightenment for me after I post this.

Regarding Carlton's book, he makes a considerable case for the corruption of Catholic praxis over the last 1500 years. The history of Catholicism reads like a bad American political novel rather than the history of the Church which God both loves and protects. I find myself wondering just what it is that I have gotten myself into after seeing all the shennanigans that the Roman rite pulled off, especially regarding the "filioque" distortion of the Nicene Creed.

He is, of course, considerably disdainful of "uniates" in general. One gets the feeling reading his book that ONLY those in the Holy Orthodox Church have even a chance of Heaven.

(BTW -- I got this book in our parish bookstore. Makes me think they might outta be more careful what they put out for reading.)

Fr. Mack's book is called in the preface "A layman's guide to THE LADDER OF DIVINE ASCENT

I find it profoundly troubling. The sense I get from reading this is that only those who really make this effort have even a chance at Heaven. I read in it the story of a monk who practiced a deep ascetic and hermitic life for 40 years and yet died seeming to .... well, let me give you a quote:

"This unseen and relentless interrogation (the monk seems to be answering an unseen interrogator at the time of his death)was a truly awful and frightening spectacle. Worst of all was the fact that he was charged with offenses of which he was innocent, and, what is extraordinary, regarding some of them this hesychast and hermit would say, "I do not know how to answer." And yet he had been a monk for almost forty years and he had the gift of tears as well. Alas, alas....He was tryly unable to say such a thing. And why was that? Glory to Him who alone knows, and this was a man who had reared a leopard by hand in the desert, or so I was solemnly told. So there he was now, called to account, and he died while it was happening leaving us unsure of the judgment passed on him, of his final end or sentence or of the verdict rendered him."

If a man such as this, who has eschewed sin for 40 years, who has lived the ascetic life for that long, striving in prayers and fastings to be like Christ and climb the Ladder of Divine Ascent, can be called to account and perhaps not even attain eternal bliss....what possible hope do I, chief of the sinners, have in the face of such a demanding God?

But more than this, I find myself wondering about the whole issue of climbing the Ladder of Divine Ascent, for it seems to make a mockery of faith and trusting in God. It seems to say "Just trusting and doing good is not enough. Refraining from sin is not enough. All that you could possibly do is not enough."

And what of Jesus, who replied, when asked of how to attain Heaven, replied not with a set of rules and regulations to be followed, but said instead:

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It seems that in reading this book, believing, doing good, and eschewing evil is not enough, but instead, we must scale a mountain which, at least for me, is IMPOSSIBLE to climb.

If this be so....then I am doomed, pure and simple. All my faith in Christ, however small it is, is simply not enough.

I do not believe in nor accept the idea of "faith alone" as posited by the Reformers, but the reading of this book has made me wonder if the Desert Fathers took the simplicity of faith in the crucified and risen Christ and made it into something highly complicated, not by the wish or will of God, but because of their own personal peculiarities and problems

I appreciate your comments on my dilemna.

Brother Ed

PS.....Additional question regarding Carlton's book. He lampoons the idea of purgatory as expressed by the Latin Rite. What exactly is the Orthodox belief of the afterlife?

Well, among other things, I don't think it sounds very charitable of Carlton to "lampoon" the Latin Rite's belief in Purgatory.

Disagreeing with it, that's fine - I know a lot of Easterners do. But making fun of it - that sounds a bit unChristian.

As for the "shenanigans" of the Catholic Church - wheat and tares, my friend, wheat and tares.

Hi Ed,

CHEER UP BRO!!

Don't be swayed by Carlton's polemics.

You could just as easily write a history of Christ's own ministry and make it look like a bad political novel. How much easier it is when writing of the actions of sinful men!

Oh, and is the Filioque a "distortion" of the Nicene Creed? I understand that the Eastern Catholics don't like saying it. FINE.

But it is NOT a distortion, any more than homoousios is a distortion of what went before!

Regarding the Divine Ascent stuff--try some Therese of Liseux! It'll perk you up in no time at all!

In Christ,

L trad

Brother Ed,

St. Paul refers to himself as the foremost sinner (1 Tim 1:15). Why would this saint consider himself the foremost sinner? As we grow closer and closer to God (as we climb the ladder, as we go through the process of theosis) we recognize more and more our own faults and imperfections and these are "sin" -- they are things that keep us from God.

The Apostles asked the same question you asked, "Who, then, can be saved?" and Jesus answered it thus: We do not save ourselves, God does that.

On a visit to a monastery, a young man asked the Hegumen "What do you do all day?" and the Hegumen answered: "We fall down, and we get up, we fall down, and we get up." The difference between the saint in heaven and the sinner in hell is often the fact that the saint got up one more time.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Altar Boy,

I shudder when I hear someone mention Carlton.

I have not nor will I ever read his book or hear one of his tapes. His Orthodoxy, from the little that I needed to hear, is not the spiritual Orthodoxy that I love, it is the 'polemic' Orthodoxy that *some* Orthodox espouse.

If I am not mistaken, he is a convert from Protestantism. As much as I rejoice in my Protestant brothers and sisters joining my church, I do get concerned that the anti-Catholic position of Protestantism in *some* converts like Carlton ( please don't take offense if any of you were once Protestant, I am emphasizing *some*) is going to negatively influence the spirit of Orthodoxy and will perpetuate whatever historical East/West baggage might still exist. Certainly Orthodox 'speakers' such as Carlton will do nothing to aide in the 'purification of memory' that all Christians need.

There is so much that is positive and beautiful in Orthodoxy that he could speak about... I don't know why he has to waste his energies and his salvation on being so negative. As for making fun of Purgatory, I wonder what he thinks about the after life...does he believe in 'toll houses' (monastic and traditionalist Orthodox), or a foretaste of 'heaven and hell' (modern Orthodox)...and/or what he thinks about the Orthodox belief of the efficacy of prayers for the dead which we Orthodox put MUCH emphasis on. (Just about every Sunday there are two or three 'mnymosyna' aka:memorial prayers services for the dead after Liturgy in most Greek Orthodox churches). I suppose that these would be good questions to ask him, though I do not care to ever meet him to ask him!

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. If by 'lampooning', you basically mean that he is 'making fun of' purgatory, my only comment would be that he should think more about his own salvation, as 'making fun' and/or malicious sarcasm are NEVER, EVER, a Christian thing to do...

Answer: it has nothing to do with faith. It has everything (in the case of The Ladder) with instructions on praxis. And it was written with a certain audience in mind. In the case of The Ladder, that audience was monastics, who were used to this. Again and again...Laymen should not grab every book on "Orthodoxy" they can without the blessing of their spiritual father. Sometimes they are not ready for the concepts, sometimes they are confused, sometimes they are scandalized or outraged.

Has this spiritually benefitted you?

The purpose of The Ladder was to instruct, and make others conscious of their sins, and those that they would be tempted to fall into. It is a cautionary tale. The closer one comes to theosis, the more one needs to "fine-tune" one's life...and the more the "big sins" are not the issue...the little ones are...it is for such that The Ladder is written...

Gaudior, by means of explanation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Altar Boy:
[QB] Okay.

Time for STUPID CONVERT QUESTIONS.

I am currently reading "THE TRUTH" by Clark Carlton and "ASCENDING THE HEIGHTS" by Fr. John Mack. Both of these books I find quite depressing to read. Perhaps someone will have some enlightenment for me after I post this.

Dear AB,

St Paul answers your "dillema:"
Read I Corinthians: Chapter 10, on...

There will be many who claim to "know" God's plan.......stick with an undeniable source: Paul of Tarsus...

Have no doubts about our/your faith.....it is "The True Faith" no matter what the Protestants may conjure up to the contrary!

Fr.M

My Brother Ed, Better yet, read the Gospels. The One who had mercy on the despised and the sinner, the One who says "Let not your heart be troubled" and "Come to me, ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest" is the One who suffered and died for you, the One who loves you. The only people he spoke harshly to were the Pharisees, the "righteous", the religious folks of his day. I don't know the writngs you speak of, perhaps they are a spirituality for modern day Pharisees, but for we Publicans and sinners the Gospel suffices.

Hello --

Thank you one and all for responding.

Perhaps I should begin by saying that the word "lampoon" was ....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....a very bad choice. I was in a bit of a hurry to type and scram and did not choose my wording well. Nonetheless, the teaching of purgatory is condemned by Carlton.


St. Paul refers to himself as the foremost sinner (1 Tim 1:15). Why would this saint consider himself the foremost sinner? As we grow closer and closer to God (as we climb the ladder, as we go through the process of theosis) we recognize more and more our own faults and imperfections and these are "sin" -- they are things that keep us from God.

Hello Fr. Deacon Ed -- thank you for this response. I still have this question regarding the climbing of the ladder -- the book makes it seem that it is an IMPERITIVE to not only climb it, but to master each step in order to achieve final salvation. I must say that I identify more with the poor souls I see in the icon who are being pulled off than I do with any who are victorious.

Faith and good works are not enough? Faith and becoming like Christ? Seems more like this book intimates that faith and being Christ is the only remedy for our souls.


I have not nor will I ever read his book or hear one of his tapes. His Orthodoxy, from the little that I needed to hear, is not the spiritual Orthodoxy that I love, it is the 'polemic' Orthodoxy that *some* Orthodox espouse.

Well, truth is truth, right? I guess the question becomes just how much truth we have to possess and how well in order to be really saved.

If I am not mistaken, he is a convert from Protestantism.

Anabaptist. Much of his book sounds like to me that he was anti-catholic before his conversion and found a convenient place to continue to be such.

Certainly Orthodox 'speakers' such as Carlton will do nothing to aide in the 'purification of memory' that all Christians need.

I have an idea that the Sack of Constantinople is one of the highest of the holy days in his house, don't you?


Answer: it has nothing to do with faith. It has everything (in the case of The Ladder) with instructions on praxis. And it was written with a certain audience in mind. In the case of The Ladder, that audience was monastics, who were used to this.

Well, the Ladder is spoken of in very high terms in our parish.

Again and again...Laymen should not grab every book on "Orthodoxy" they can without the blessing of their spiritual father. Sometimes they are not ready for the concepts, sometimes they are confused, sometimes they are scandalized or outraged.

Yeah, I'm going to bring this one to Fr. Mike and let him see what is being said in it. I think someone forgot to "read and review" it before it got stuck on the bookshelf. I got the feeling from listening to homilies that whether we acknowledge it or not, we are all on that ladder. The wise ones have their eyes opened to this reality and react accordingly.

Has this spiritually benefitted you? I'm not sure. Is mourning one's rotten life beneficial? Perhaps if it is godly mourning. But if I am just depressed because I don't like what I see in the mirror of self-examination....well, that is just pride.

You know, honestly, it was so much easier being a sinner.

The purpose of The Ladder was to instruct, and make others conscious of their sins, and those that they would be tempted to fall into. It is a cautionary tale. The closer one comes to theosis, the more one needs to "fine-tune" one's life...and the more the "big sins" are not the issue...the little ones are...it is for such that The Ladder is written...

How are they all not "big sins" in God's sight? Every sin is an offense to Him and separates us from Him.

St Paul answers your "dillema:"
Read I Corinthians: Chapter 10, on...

Okay. Now may I have your homily on it -- your practical application, as it were, please?

There will be many who claim to "know" God's plan.......stick with an undeniable source: Paul of Tarsus...

Have no doubts about our/your faith.....it is "The True Faith" no matter what the Protestants may conjure up to the contrary!

It ain't the Protestants who are causing my misery. One look at their chaotic condition is enough to convince me of that. It is the deprecation of the Orthodox and my own sinful passions which give me heebiees about my faith.

Thanks again to all.

Brother Ed

Dear Altar Boy,

If you don't mind clarifying, just exactly what faith 'tradition' are you/or are you converting to? Thanks!

In Christ,
Alice

Hi Ed,

Most definitely, the Carlton book and the Ladder are two very different issues so it would help to separate them.

There are many great Orthodox authors who will not let polemical arguments poison their good writing.

As for Carltons' book, I would not waste my time with it. If you were reading Meyendorff or Schmemann now you would really be getting something. I recently read a book by Jon E. Braun (another convert from Protestantism to Orthodoxy) called Divine Energy and it was great, also there wasn't a hint of anti-Catholic Polemic.

Of Catholic authors there are books by Joseph Raya, Tomas Spidlik, Casimir Kucharek, George Maloney. You could mine deep on both sides of the great divide. I recently picked up a book called Building on a Solid Foundation from Basilica Press, I cannot wait to tear into it, the work was written by three Maronites.

The Catholic position is that the eastern perspective and the western perspective are equivalent to each other. Of course the doctrines of the west (or east) may be difficult to reconcile from the other perspective. It is necessary to use charitable understanding in these matters or we will never undo the damage of all of these years of separation. The undivided church of the first millenium did have this charitable understanding, although it was sorely tested at times.

--

I also have that book by John Mack, but it's not the Ladder, it's just a commentary, or rather like meditations on selections from the Ladder. Like others have said the Ladder was written for a different audience in another century, and one has to keep that in mind. As an Oblate of Saint Benedict I read the Rule of Saint Benedict too and it was written for another time. Benedictines will read the rule and adapt it as far as possible in their given situation, and Oblates are always looking for that pearl of Wisdom they can glean from it, to help them move forward. We do our best in our own state of life.

I would suggest that you get a copy of the Ladder of Divine Ascent and read each step from the Ladder and the commentary from John Mack. The Ascendng the Heights book is definitely useful. If you get the Ladder from Paulist Press the preface and Introductions are marvelous. Someone else here has stated that the introduction is worth the price of the book!

Of course! We are only human.

Don't be discouraged, not all of the concepts will be immediately understandable or appreciated, but I still think it is worth a try.

Your friend in Christ,
Michael

What I was thinking of when I wrote this was a story I was told years ago, so please forgive me if in the telling I mangle it, or make it less rich.

A monk went to his spiritual father with such a question, and was told to take up a certain large stone from way down at the bottom of the cliff on the beach of Mt. Athos and bring it to his elder. He did so, toiling with it from the beach below up the face of the cliff, and presented it to his elder. He was then told to cast it down the cliff side back onto the beach. He again did as bidden. His elder told him then to go fetch THAT same stone again. As the stone was quite large, the monk picked it out, and brought it to his elder at the top of the cliff. His elder then instructed him to go down to the beach and gather up a sack of small stones, and bring them to him, at the top of the cliff. The obedient monk did so. He was again instructed to throw all the stones from the top of the cliff back onto the beach...Then, to collect them all, the same stones, again. When this time he confessed to his elder that the task was beyond his ability, his elder explained that the stones represented sins. It was easy for the monk to see and note the "large" sins that recurred in his life, and to pluck them from his soul in confession, but the small temptations and sins that besest us daily are often not carefully examined, and thus remain unconfessed to weigh down and burden our souls, simply because we cannot identify them.

He was a wise man.

That is why Books such as The Ladder and Ascending the Heights are strict. They are meant to FOCUS you inward. Man is to be assured of Christ's love, and the Fathers do so. But they are meant to make you think. It isn't acting the self righteous to say "I am a sinner!" It is to say, everyone else is.

Gaudior, chief of sinners

Alice --

I had been Protestant all of my life. Parents raised me Episcopalian. Then, in my great genius, I declared myself an atheist and went bonkers for the next 4 years. After that, I was "saved" by a "street evangelist" Fundamentalist and spent 13 years in Fundamentalism. Then on to Presbyterian Calvinism.

Five years ago I began a serious study of the Catholic Faith and at the same time, met a very wonderful Orthodox priest who introduced me to his parish. I wanted to convert to Orthodoxy, but my studies convinced me of the concept of one earthly head over the earthly Church.

Thus, the Byzantine Catholic Church was the perfect place for me and I entered into Her 3 years ago this coming Pascha.

And the longer I stay in, the less I realize I know. Thus

DUMB CONVERT QUESTIONS!

But that's how we learn.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Brother Ed

This notion that anti-Catholic views among some Orthodox Christian are a reslut of the "baggage" of Protestant converts to the Orthodox Church, is completly false!!!

Go to Greece or Russia and talk to traditionalist faithful there, and you will find strong anti-Catholic feelings, and most of these people have maybe never even seen a Protestant, let alone been one.

Christian