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But Christteen!

One has to watch that this does not become a a form of hybridism. The Eastern Catholic Churches are trying desperately to rid themselves of Latinizations. It is the rare person who can safely combine the East and West within themselves. I think of Father Lev (Gillet) and MOther Maria Skobtsova as a few examples.

Peace,
Brian

P.S. I ask your prayers as i become formally a catechumen in the Orthodox Faith in 2 weeks time! God Willing!!!!!! Perfect time to as we prepare for Great Lent, the Veliki Post!

Brian,

Yes, you're very right! But I've always understood that us Catholics are called to breathe with the theology and devotions of both East and West, but that this should never mix with the public devotion and theology that each orientation has to offer. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself can correct me on this, but I've always thought that we are called to be hybrids of East and West, but the Churches themselves are not.

God bless and good luck, Brian! May I ask what you were formerly before entering the catechumenate?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Want to see a Catholic hybrid? Watch me in my personal devotions . (Although, I would be an exception as I'm trying to decide on which part of the Church the Lord wants me in.)

Anyway, I was thinking about this issue last evening, and I came to the conclusion that God has so ordained that each part of the Catholic Church has been graced with the fullness of theology and devotion. In other words, each side has completely all that is needed for our salvation. But we must not deem ourselves "complete" without the other parts of the Church. It is one thing to acknowledge the need for another part of the universal Church to provide different ways of expressing the truth, and the need to have the devotions of another part of the Church to make us spiritually complete.

Personally, I don't like the idea of "mixing the rites" (if you know which part of the Church you belong in ) if only for personal devotion. But if you are able to do it correctly then I guess you should do it, but you should never think that you "need" the other half of the Church to be spiritually complete, as that would be saying that the Lord left part of the Church "incomplete."

I hope I made some sense!

Adam

P.S. I'll remember you in my prayers, Brian .

Brian,

May our Lord's richest blessings be yours as you continue your journey in Orthodoxy!

ChristTeen and Adam, I too agree that the liturgical heritage of each rite must be fully respected. I am very happy that Eastern Christians are once again restoring their ancient and beautiful traditions and that is as it should be. However, I am amazed at how quickly I have become attached to the Byzantine way of prayer. For example, the prayers to the Mother of God in the Byzantine tradition are so beautiful and yet dignified at the same time. I'm sure many Roman Catholics can remember a time when Marian spirituality was so saccharine as to make one wince. Fortunately, that is beginning to change as Roman Catholics rediscover their own liturgical and patristic heritage.

Too, the Byzantine morning and evening prayers have become rooted in my spirituality very quickly and yet because so much of the Roman Liturgy of the Hours incorporates the writings of many eastern Fathers and Saints I find a connecting link there, too, even though our calendars differ.

I understand now why the Holy Father is so keen for Eastern and Western Christians to know each other better.

Adam,

All good points. I definitely didn't mean to imply that one Particular Church's traditions and devotions aren't enough for salvation; they are! But in another way, I think to be a "complete" Catholic, one should attempt to immerse themselves into all of the Church's traditions, and I think this is what Ut Unum Sint advocates.

Christine,

I'm so happy to know that you've found a spiritual home in Byzantine devotions. My paragraph to Adam above is not meant to contradict the fact that some people are simply drawn to certain devotion, and draw much more spiritual benefit from it. From what you describe, this may very well be the case with you.

I still say that plunging ourselves deep into both Eastern and Western devotions we most heavily deepen our spiritual life.

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen,

I most heartily agree with you. Just this morning I made my usual reading of the Roman Office of Readings and found it perfectly natural to flow right into the Byzantine Morning Prayers since the reading was from an Eastern Patristic source. East and West do have their own unique heritage but also share a common Catholic patrimony. I think I am doubly blessed!

ChristTeen,

You're seriously misunderstanding what the Holy Father meant when he articulated the "two lungs" model of the Church. It is the Church (of Christ, the one Church) as a whole that is called to "breathe with both lungs", not individual Christians.

The vast majority of apostolic/orthodox Christians in the world in history and now have/will never experience any patrimony other than their own, and they are compromised in their life in Christ not one iota. It is laudable and edifying for individual Christians to learn about the "other lung" than the one in which they are inculturated, but is in no way necessary. Such syncretism (hybridism) is a serious violation of the integrity of each Tradition, not to mention of the many teaching letters of the Popes exhorting the Eastern Churches especially to be faithful to their own Traditions and live them as authentically as possible.

Our own Tradition, whatever that may be, cannot even be fully experienced and appreciated in an individual's lifetime--can you imagine the burden if we are expected to live our Christian lives in multiple Traditions? It boggles the mind.

In fact, the number of places in the world where such a thing is even possible for more than a handful of people, are few and far between--urban centers in North America and a few other first-world capitals.

Can you imagine if it were as you say incumbent upon Christians to become familiar with and try to live out all the eastern and western Christian Traditions at once?

We'd all be moving to Pittsburgh... :rolleyes:

Learn about and appreciate the rich mosaic of Traditions of the Church-- but live your own as fully and authentically as possible. The Tradition is not an end in itself (but easily could wrongly become such if the implications of the "two lungs" model were as you say), but the means to the fulfillment of our lives in Christ.

Lemko-Rusyn makes some very valid observations. The reality is that one must join a community to work out one's salvation. The community is either Western or one variety of Eastern (Byzantine, Maronite, Syrian, Malabar, Malankar, etc.) The idea of creating a personal patchwork-quilt of devotions is not a viable choice.

Why? Because wherever one finds a home, there is a whole tradition and panoply of spirituality to be understood and practiced - IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY.

To allow one's self to pick and choose is to consider one's self the primary focal point of spirituality, and this is clearly not compatible with becoming a member of a 'particular Church' as the canonists would say. Your or my spiritual growth comes primarily in the way that we each are integrated with our prayer community, i.e., the parish.

It is best to consult with your parish pastor to find guidance in this matter. He will be able to guide you in ways to make spiritual progress.

A side point: the "veneration" of the altar area is NOT the veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, bur rather a veneration of the altar with the relics of the martyrs. It does not matter where the Sacrament is reposed, but rather the fact that the "main altar" is the place where the sacrifice takes place, the main altar where - like the catacombs - the bones of the martyrs repose and upon which sepulchres the sacrifice of the Lord is renewed. We venerate the consecrated altar with the bones of the martyrs. The Sacrament is not primary in this veneration. In the early Western Church, and in the Eastern Church from the beginning, the reservation of the Eucharist is intended to be solely a reservation of the Sacrament to provide an opportunity for reception of Eucharist outside the liturgical celebration - i.e., sickness, legitimate absence, etc.

So, whenever one passes a consecrated altar, one should show the appropriate veneration, whether or not the Eucharistic species is present. The altar is the place of consecrated sacrifice, the place that the bishop has anointed, and the absolute core element in any church.

This is a very big element in the differences between the Eastern and Western perspective on the church building. Easterns venerate the altar and the attendant icons; Westerns focus upon the consecrated Eucharist reserved upon the altar. This is a substantial difference.

May your investigations and prayers bring all sorts of wonderful gifts to your soul.

Blessings!

Many interesting issues raised here. Of course, I agree fully that any Christian must live out his/her calling in a specific community, rooted in a specific tradition. However ... the parish where I was received into the Church is named "St. Basil the Great". There was, naturally, no STATUE of St. Basil in this Church, even though it is a Roman Catholic parish. There was, however, a large, Eastern Icon with an Eastern lamp burning before it. This is what I mean about being able to share (to a limited extent, of course) both the Eastern and Western patrimony. And as I mentioned before, the Roman Liturgy of the Hours contain many readings from the Eastern fathers and even the Western calendar contains feast days for Eastern saints.

I certainly don't intend to try to live a dual life simultaneously in the East and West; I recognize that that would be a futile endeavor. What I am doing at the moment is "testing the waters" of Eastern spirituality and life. Ultimately, I may discern that God calls me to stay right where I am.

Time will tell.

Dear Dr. John,

Your point on the Altar is very well taken. And in fact what you said once applied to the universal and undivided Church of Christ.

There is a practice in the parliamentary system that reflects this ancient tradition of venerating the altar.

In all the countries of the world where there is the British parliamentary system, whenever a Member/Legislator gets up to leave the Chamber or else comes in to take his seat, he or she bows toward the Speaker's Chair.

Now he or she is actually not bowing to the Speaker or to ANYTHING that is in the chamber.

What he or she is doing is bowing in HONOUR of the spot where the Altar once stood in Westminster in London, U.K. where the first Speaker's Chair was installed centuries ago.

The first formal parliament was moved to the Church at Westminster and the Altar was taken away.

But the very spot where the Altar stood was considered sacred, and will be always. Members at that first formal parliament always bowed when they came and went, as they would to the Altar in any Church.

We still do that here in Ontario as well.

Alex

Alex,

Before I became Catholic I worshipped at an Episcopal parish for a short while. It was always interesting to see that in the suburban parishes folks would bow to the altar, but downtown at the local Episcopal cathedral they would genuflect -- even though there was no tabernacle on the altar. Even in some "liturgical" denominations there's confusion on this practice.

Episcopalians have always prided themselves on a bit of a "hybrid" faith, taking a bit of the East and West in their liturgy and spirituality. As it was practiced there, it turned out to not be my cup of tea.

How is one supposed to determine what tradition (East or West) one should be in? With priestly consultation?

If that's the case, I won't be Catholic for many years because that process will inevitably take awhile. I don't know how I'm going to handle it all.

ChristTeen287

Dear Christine,

Ah, you were an Episcopalian! That explains why you are so well read on all these topics and know so much!

I was beginning to actually suspect you, you know . . . But now that I know you were an Episcopalian . . . (Happy King Charles' Day on Jan. 30th, by the way!).

And you've put me to shame yet again by bringing up a very important point about the Anglican tradition.

It truly does have elements taken from the East and that was no accident.

It was largely due to the enduring influence of St Theodore of Tarsus, the Greek Archbishop of Canterbury whose time on the throne of St Augustine is called the "Golden Era of Anglicanism."

Links with the East in Britain were begun long before via the Celtic Church and its connections to Coptic Christianity.

And later, Anglican Kings and bishops kept the lines of communication with the Orthodox East open as a counterbalance to Rome's influence.

King Charles received a Bible from the Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lucaris. The Ikon of the martyred King also always bore Greek inscriptions.

As someone who is interested in the Christian East, you are truly being faithful to your Anglican roots!

Alex

Dear ChristTeen,

You mean you are not a Catholic now?

Ah, you are a Methodist, right?

That's good too!

Where do you feel you should be? If you are not sure, take it to God before all else.

Talk it over with a priest and visit some churches.

In other words, do what St Vladimir did.

His envoys came back and praised the Roman Church.

But, they said, when they were at a Divine Liturgy at St Sophia's in Constantinople, "We knew not, Sire, whether we were on earth or in heaven itself!"

Alex

Alex,

Oh dear, I goofed! Actually, I was raised Lutheran, my mother's tradition but my Dad was Roman Catholic who was very proud of his heritage. I didn't state it very clearly. When I left the Lutheran Church I attended an Episcopal parish for a few months to get the feel of a "higher" liturgical environment. I simply couldn't stay because of the social directions the American Episcopal Church was headed in. Yes, outwardly they celebrated a lovely liturgy but it had very little to do with their beliefs, which were rooted in the extreme liberal end. My experience there is one of the reasons I am firmly against the ordination of women, at least at the present time.

I formally became Roman Catholic in 1997. What knowledge I do have regarding matters liturgical and historical are strictly the result of own deep curiosity and love for the Church. Because my own ethnic and spiritual heritage is rooted in the Western Christian tradition I have to think long and hard before making any permanent moves. I'd be fooling myself it I did't admit that there are things about the Roman tradition I would miss if I made a move East.