www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The 3rd, 9th, and 40th day memorials after death

Dear Peter,

Could you elaborate on the rite of pouring red wine over the bread?

When is this done and how?

My mother's Romanian and I've never seen this done!

Alex

Dear Diak,

Yes, the "four last things" as enumerated in catechisms are "death, judgement, heaven, hell."

Purgatory would only be a temporary place, like a "forecourt" to heaven.

Purgatory is focused toward heaven and so is part of the path taken there. As you know, Western Catholics also have the tradition of invoking the "Holy Souls" as St Alphonsus di Liguori says they are saints and destined for heaven.

St Teresa of Avila even wrote that she obtained graces from them that she could not from the greatest of saints.

Alex

Dear friends,

Yes, even in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (Anglican liturgy) there is a prayer to be said for the faithful departed on the one year anniversary of his or her death:

Almighty God, we remember this day before thee thy faithful servant [name], and we pray thee that, heaving opened to him/her the gates of larger life, thou wilt receive him/her more and more into thy joyful service; that he/she may win, with thee and thy servants everywhere, the eternal victory; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Mind you, this is not merely for the "High Church" Anglo-Catholics but said even by the "basement-low" Anglicans.

resquiescant in pace,
Marshall

Dear Marshall,

I know an Anglo-Catholic priest who used the BCP.

When I saw him pray for the "souls in purgatory" I approached him later to ask how his practice meshed with the 39 Articles' condemnation of purgatory.

He simply said, "Well, the Articles condemned the RC notion of purgatory, not the Anglican view."

He was the same fellow who categorized Anglicans according to the threefold: Low and lazy; Middle and hazy; High and crazy.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Yes, the Ven. John Henry Newman noted that the 39 Articles only condemn the Romish view of purgatory AS IT WAS UNDERSTOOD IN THE MID 16TH CENTURY (i.e. fearful Dante-esque imagery) when the Articles were composed. Thus Newman thought that the 39 Articles view on purgatory and the clarified Tridentine formulation (which came after the Articles) were in perfect agreement.

The "Romish doctrine" of purgatory by no means precludes the Primitive doctrine of purgatory which I hold to - futher purification/sanctification after death.

yours in Christ,
Marshall

Alex,

The pouring of the red wine over the bread is done about half way through the service. I cannot quote the exact place, I am sorry.

I priest takes a bottle or red wine, that the family has brought to church for this purpose, and pours a little over the bread. Then each member of the family follows the same way.

This is a very moving service.

Peter

Anthropologically, I find this very interesting. The reason is, while scouring old cookbooks (hey, it's a Greek thing -- the diners you know) I ran across a reference in a Bulgarian section that said that shepherds, who would not bring a skin of wine with them to the pastures, would place bread in a container and then soak it in wine to be eaten with whatever other foods were being carried to the sheep/goat pasture.

It seems to be a 'chicken or egg' conundrum. Did the secular shepherd practice give rise to the liturgical one, or did the liturgical one arise from elsewhere.

Hmmm.

(Now I won't be able to sleep tonight.)

Blessings!!!

Wow, thanks Dr. John. Next time I go out to take care of my flock of sheep and goats I'm going to try that - but after enough wine-soaked bread I might scare the heck out of some sheep with spontaneous song...or wake up under a tree with my sheepdog licking my face...

I HOPE THAT THAT IS NOT AN ANTI-DOG COMMENT!!

Some of us are real fond of dogs, especially the sheep-dog variety. Remember: All dogs are humans, they just have a skin condition. And also: ALL dogs are 'working dogs' - they are a sign of God's providence in giving us non-human companions on the journey through life. As the movie title says: "all dogs go to heaven". And when we get there, they'll be waiting -- probably with leash in mouth waiting for "walkies".

Blessings!

hehehe

Diak's sheepdog is possibly like my Dalmatian - enjoys the good things in life - particularly expensive wines and armchairs !!

Dear Friends,

Thank you for that info on the wine over the bread stuff!

I'll do it from now on.

I also understand that the liturgical practice of placing a piece of the Consecrated Bread into the Communion Chalice, apart from its deep Christian, spiritual meaning, is reflected in the Greek tradition of placing a piece of toasted bread into a cup of wine.

Alexander the Great (my patron ) did this as he hoisted the chalice into the air as a divine tribute.

From this, our modern term to "give a toast" comes from.

Believe it - or not .

Alex

Thank you, Alexander Ripley. (You are just a wonderful fount of fascinating information. To your fact-filled brain: Monohaya Lita!!)

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

I offer a toast to you too, Despota!

I was recently granted a personal coat of arms by the government and I chose Alexander's 16 pointed Star of Vergina as the main emblem - with a Fleur de lys at the centre to reflect some of my French roots.

God bless!

Alex