www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Starting on an 'Eastern' Life

Alex,

One can tell that your work schedule is different these days. Used to be one would never see you posting in the evening .

Many years,

Neil, the nightowl

Tammy,

Thank you for your kind words about us Melkites. Archbishop Raya is a treasure not only to us, but to Eastern Christianity in general.

I've never had the pleasure of attending Liturgy at Holy Transfiguration parish in McLean but, as I've said elsewhere, Father Joe Francavilla, the pastor there, is an old friend from his days as the assistant at the Cathedral. Everyone I know who has been there speaks very highly of the parish's orthodoxy and the beauty of its Liturgy.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks everyone for the great advice.

FYI, when I said that I was a little under the weather, I just meant a little sinus infection. Nothing serious. I just didn't feel like driving out to the burbs on sunday morning.

I have to admit that sometimes when I attend an EC or Orthodox church, I feel a bit like a fraud. I actually know what to do but I don't do everything because I feel like I'm a fake. It feels so strange to me to cross myself the 'wrong way.' It feels kind of like I'm trying to pretend to be something I'm not. But I think that will change as I become a more 'regular' attendee at the divine liturgy.

Another problem is that my old confessor (RC) doesn't really approve of my change. He was horrified when I announced that I might convert to Orthodoxy. He's happy that I'm 'back in the fold,' but he doesn't understand my attraction to the east. And I suspect he's not quite comfortable with the EC approach to the papacy. It's hard for me to do something he doesn't approve of me.

But ultimately I feel like I have no choice but to make this change.

Jennifer,

Yes, it will change as you become more accustomed to doing it. Then, of course, you get the challenge of explaining to friends and family why you cross yourself "the wrong way" :rolleyes: . Years from now, when you attend a Mass or some other event where Latin Catholics predominate and you suddenly catch yourself unconsciously crossing in the Latin manner, because someone right in front of you has just done so, you'll think "what am I doing?"

I'm not sure why he's uncomfortable about our approach to the papacy. You might point out to him that the Holy Father himself has spoken innumerable times of the beauty and faithfulness of the East and that it is at least possible that his own mother was an Eastern Catholic. I know that it's hard to think about breaking off a long-standing relationship with a confessor, but if he is really so uncomfortable with you following your inner spirituality to the where you feel most fulfilled, it may be time to consider seeking out another confessor - either a Latin priest who is more in touch with Eastern Catholicism (if you aren't yet ready to make a more definitive break eastward) or an Eastern Catholic priest, if you're comfortable enough with the idea of where you are going, which I suspect you are.

Many years,

Neil

Well to the discussion that was had about which one of the Byzantine churches, I can only say that God will give you the grace to succeed in whichever one he places you in.

I always think God has a marvelous sence of humor. He took a Polish National Catholic (my husband) and a Southern Baptist (me) brought us together into the Ruthenian Byzantine Church and moved us to Birmingham where there is only a Melkite Greek Catholic Church. And now my husband is a Ruthenian Deacon serving in a Melkite parrish.

So I can honestly say God will give you the grace to learn the cultural languge of wherever he decides to place you. It is like the Scripture where they prayed in tongues and each understood in his own language. You will receive the grace to understand the language. Don't let that be a barrier to where you go.

I was a rural southern girl and the only thing I knew was english southern drawl. Somehow, and all I can say is it is through grace, I can understand.
Pani Rose

Dear Jennifer,

The issue of crossing oneself the right or wrong way was pronounced in the days of the EC Eastern European churches.

So much so, in fact, that many Greek-Catholic prayerbooks printed a statement by Pope Innocent III (who met ST Francis) where he defines the proper way for all Latin Catholics to cross oneself in terms of using three fingers and going to the right first.

(Someone once found an English translation of this on the internet somewhere - I actually came under attack by some for saying this without a reference to back it up - they didn't believe a Pope after the schism could say such a thing!)

So the ancient and theologically enriching way for even Latin Catholics to cross themselves is the same as in the Byzantine Church.

Even High CHurch Lutherans I know cross themselves this way (and High Church Anglicans too).

Alex

Alex,

Like so many things Rome has changed its devotional practices for reasons that often elude me. When and why did Rome change?

When did Rome change the proper posture of worship from standing to kneeling?

I believe I know when and why Rome changed the order and age when the initiatory sacraments were changed by Rome? But for clarification do you have a solid lead on this information as well.

And of course the West changed from having the Priest lead by example at worship to leading by folksy conversation when priests stopped facing the same way as the people. Why and when did they do this? See https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001231

The West has changed many things in this area. It's rarely clear why. Some of the changes may well be considered damaging to the spiritual well being of the people.

dan l

Well Dan, sometimes Rome doesn't change things, things change Rome!

The Apostle Peter's mind was blown by bringing the Gentiles into the Church.

He is the God of surprises.

Paul

Dear Paul and Dan,

I am in favor of a return, as far as is possible, to the practice of the ancient traditions. The centuries have brought changes indeed, some having more merit than others (and, of course, some having more of the opposite). Just think how unifying the restoration of ancient practice could be. Am I conjuring up a flawed picture in imagining the Catholic and Orthodox drawing nearer in spirit through a return to ancient forms? Wouldn't even many of the protestants be drawn in to a movement that would seek to restore the beauty and dignifed worship that existed in the first centuries? Doesn't our form of prayer, the Liturgy, become our common belief when it is prayed in spirit and in truth? Should we be in favor of a grassroots effort to restore early Christian practice everywhere? Who would find fault in this scenario?

Looking for unity and peace in Christ,

Tammy

Alex,

and,

Many years,

Neil

Dan,

This policy statement (by which the Diocese of Spokane (WA) effected what must have been a ground-shaking change in the sequence of the Sacraments of Initiation) is followed by a "Historical Overview of Christian Initiation". While it doesn't put a precise year to the changes you mention, it does decribe the reasons for same and offers a chronological timeframe of reference.

One Body, One Spirit in Christ: Pol...r Baptized Catholics, Diocese of Spokane [dioceseofspokane.org]

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

I have a job for you!

You should charge top dollar for courses on how to use the internet!!

You could retire in a few months and live like a king of Dalriada!

Alex

Dear Professor Dan,

As Neil has shown, Latin priests would bless the people by going from left to right.

What soon happened is that the people imitated the priest's blessing and began crossing themselves from left to right - and over time, this became the rule.

Rome sometimes brought in changes and was actually censured by an Ecumenical Council for changing the fasting days from Wednesday to Saturday (I forget which Council did that).

So when we EC's and Orthodox tell Rome to return to its ancient traditions, we are not trying to be cute.

If Rome did return to its ancient disciplines etc., we would have one Church because Rome would then be in complete harmony with the Orthodox East on the issue of the Creed etc.

And that includes the proper way to make the Sign of the Cross according to Apostolic tradition - the current Latin form is but a post-Schism innovation, truth be told.

And in these days when dogma is being questioned and doubted, what better way to affirm it than through a theologically meaningful Sign of the Cross?

Alex

Thank you Niel and Alexander the laundry room repairman,

This information is most helpful. Now if we could just convince Roman Catholics not to excommunicate their children at all until they reach the magical age of accountability then we will have helped them restore that ancient tradition completely.

Dan L

Dan

[Rant mode]
Some of us are trying to do just that - and we are hitting our heads of the proverbial brick wall [ rats - can't find the smiley for that ]

But when we have a Pastor who says, that as the new GIRMS are not as yet in an approved transation for use in the UK, then we can carry on doing our 'own thing' well - I really do not have much hope for Infant Communion for our wee ones.

[/Rant mode]

Anhelyna