www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology My dose of Jehovah's Witnesses today

Dear Friends,

I just HAD to go to the door to meet the latest crew of Jehovah Witness missionaries sent to our neighbourhood . . .

I talked with them for a while and began with the quote of the beginning of the Gospel of John "was a god" vs. "was God."

They said they weren't tied to their "new world translation" and said there were other translations that translated "was a god" I challenged them to name even one translation and they said they didn't know but would get the information and come back - I said, "No thanks, if you don't know, you don't know."

Rather than get into a discussion about their views, I then began to witness my own Orthodox Catholic Christian faith in the Divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity (that they said was of pagan origin) Theosis etc.

I also told them I knew some disfellowshipped Jehovah Witnesses and they said "How can you expect such to witness to you to the truth? What if we were to witness to you about Catholicism?"

I asked them if they were ever Catholics - one of them said he was a former Anglican.

"So you converted to the JW's from Anglicanism, did you?" I replied. Then I smiled (yes, impishly, if you must know . . .) and said, "Well, I can see that . . ."

The other fellow wouldn't stop talking and when I tried to say something, he said, "Let me just finish now!"

He was upset I was interrupting him, but I wasn't allowed to say my peace . . .

I kept going back to the issue of their "bible" being different from any other version around.

They strenuously denied that. And when they said there were other bibles around that agreed with theirs, I simply told them they were misrepresenting the matter.

But I seemed to get further ahead, than at any other time, by simply telling them about my faith and my spiritual life.

I didn't mention the Byzantine Forum and how I sometimes say things here that is unbecoming a human being, let alone a Christian . . .

But that is a matter for my confessor!

They actually thanked me for sharing my faith with them since "so many people just don't care about religion."

I didn't think I'd get that far with them. Upon reflection, at the moment when I realized there were JW's at the door, I thought about not answering it. Something seemed to move me to go to the door anyway.

After witnessing to them myself, I felt calm and comfortable and ready to engage them in any and all further discussions. I did feel I needed to gain more familiarity with scripture and scriptural studies (of the non-JW kind, of course! )

But I felt an energy surge and when I took the dog out for a walk I saw them walking by and wished them a good day. Had they wanted to "discuss" things with me again, I was certainly ready to have go!

Any comments or suggestions on what I've said here - helpful or otherwise?

Alex

Dr. Alex,

Good for you! You may have planted a seed for their conversion.

Here's a book that may help for next time:

http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/...ml?L+scstore+ynkb7056ff99d099+1148850558

You know I think they have also predicted the exact date of the Second Coming no less than 4 times and obviously have been wrong.

Dear Dr Eric,

Thank you, I'll call and order that book!

A number of our Ukie immigrants appear to be vulnerable to them as well.

I had a distasteful experience in my former school where the principal told me NOT to discuss this matter with a teacher whose sister was being targeted by the JW's.

She actually accused me of "religious intolerance" in trying to counter JW arguments!

As if the JW group is somehow "tolerant" . . .

Thanks - you are a physician not only for the body, sir!

Alex

Hi Alex!

Sounds like you had a great experience talking with the JWs today!

In my experience Witnesses are more prepared to talk about the subjects of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ than the subject of salvation. I've found that starting there gets through to them faster.

These two files may be of help:

Is Your Hope Bible-Based? Questions and Reflections for Jehovah\'s Witnesses [catholic-forum.com]

No Heavenly Hope for the Old Testament Saints? [catholic-forum.com]

I find that taking the "seed-planting" approach works best. They're not going to "cry uncle" in your presence but view each opportunity to talk to them as a chance to plant a new seed.

If you want to have the same Witnesses call so you can do that:

1) Take some literature from them (such as their magazines---but don't waste your time reading them...just claim business if they ask you about it later)

2)Ask direct questions in a non-confrontational way. Perhaps along a theme using various Scriptures--each time asking a question about a particular verse. Allow them to not be able to answer and say you can discuss it more the next time they come.

Avoid long discussions. Limit it to a few minutes (10 to 15 minutes at max)--this will avoid getting into long debates. Just try to plant a seed each time they come with their magazines.

This reminds me of the:
Mormons are Coming

Sounds like you did a good job Dr. Alex.

Dear Dan,

Thank you, sir!

I will take your advice as you are "da man!"

Back to marking those papers . . .

Alex

Dear Dan,

One more question though.

What happens when one gets to a point in a discussion with our friends and they just deny that what one says is right . . .

In other words, like what happens on the Forum at times . . .

Alex

Dr. Alex,

Tim Staples, who is now with Catholic Answers, had a great reply to that "a god" versus "God" in St. John's Gospel.

http://www.goodcathinfo.com/ccarchjesnotgod.htm

I do know that when Our Lord meets St. Thomas, St. Thomas replies, "The Lord of me and the God of me," in greek.

Also, in St. Paul's letter to the Hebrews, the first Chapter deals with the fact that Our Lord is not an angel and is in fact the Son of God.

Here are a few more links to get you going:

http://www.goodcathinfo.com/ccfeaarchives.htm

You might want to ignore the part about Orthodoxy in this next link:

http://www.catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp

http://www.goodcathinfo.com/ccarch55ques.htm

I think the German in me loves to argue!

Alex:

I had an experience like the one you describe once, but I guess I missed the chance to evangelize. I was hot and tired and not feeling particularly up to arguing with these people. So I pulled out a large neck cross I happened to be wearing, told them I was priest (yeh, confessed that fib already), and invited them to the Divine Liturgy at the local Russian Orthodox parish.

Funny, now when they come into the neighborhood, they come to my walk, cross the street, and come back across once they have passed my property.
I don't think I have horns or a tail!

BOB

I might be pressing my luck, but I am lucky. They have a kingdom hall about a half mile awayish, if that. They don't come around.

Watch it!

They may come knockin in the morning! Actually consider yourself blessed.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+

Dear Dr Eric,

Thanks for those links - they certainly bear close study.

Some of the JW's are experts at circular reasoning - they will, in no wise, accept any argument that counters theirs. They think that if they do not know a counter-argument, it is their fault and there must be one - they just don't know it or else they will say they will come by next time with someone who will.

After a while, it seemed as if we were talking past each other. I insisted that everything hinged on the actual translation of scripture and that the NWT was written to support JW theological a priori's.

They then moved into the idea that they would work with any Bible and that the quote from John 1:1 shouldn't be played up too much.

But I wouldn't let them go from that and that is when I began telling them what I myself believe.

They had their arguments of course. But they seemed to accept that I wouldn't budge as I had a well-defined faith perspective etc.

They also struck me, although sincere etc., as being "intellectual hicks" when it came to any sort of abstract thought, preferring, instead, to keep to simplistic philosophical constructions.

As the three of us stood there, I said to them that "we have an image of the Trinity right here - we are three persons and yet we possess the very same nature, our humanity, at the same time."

Apart from argument, I think what truly challenges them are people with strong religious conviction themselves.

And I think this is so because they then know their chances of success of making a new convert are slim and they move on.

Alex

Dear Bob,

Actually, that was brilliant on your part (minus the white lie - or perhaps you are ordained by one of the vagante jurisdictions? ).

Another Russian priest I heard about from a priest-friend would take holy water and go toward them a-blessin' . . .

They tended not to hang around long then . . .

I also strongly believe they could be very much afraid of holy water/sacramentals - and I wouldn't be surprised if they had their own secret "spell-casting" system.

Russian Orthodox priests, when speaking to cultists etc., often cross themselves every so often to keep the influence of the evil one at bay.

I think there is great wisdom in that - AND in wearing good-sized Crosses!

Alex

Bob, I see the forceshield that loomed over your part of our county has been lifted and you're back on the forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yay, Bob is back, go Bob GO!

Dear Bob,

I'm so happy you're back with us. Amazing what a few prayers will do.

Zenovia