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#55133 11/04/03 09:58 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
If anything I am surprised that you had responded without offering the same explanation that I offered.
Snip!
It appears to me that you seek out the worst interpretation and then purposely use it as an instrument to clobber someone.

If you were an OCA pastor and one of your parishioners came up to you and asked:

�Fr. Tony, I�m going on vacation next week and will be going to the Greek Orthodox parish in Florida. Can I receive the Eucharist in a Greek Orthodox Church? Are Orthodox able to receive the Eucharist in another diocese?�

Would you respond:

�Where did you get such an idea? Do you believe that Jews put the blood of Christian babies in matzoh too? Or was that meant to be some joke? Is this something crazy you read on byzcath.org?�

You are studying to be a priest. You should always go the extra mile to see behind the words to the real question and minister to everyone you speak with.

Admin
Administrator,

I imagine then that you are as surprised by Fr. Thomas and the others who responded with the same understanding of what was being said as I did.

I really liked the use of the word "clobber!" It made me laugh...and that is a good thing. If it is so, I only have this board to thank in honing that skill even more. biggrin

As for how I would respond to my parishioner, who knows, if he/she read this board I might say that. :p I would have, however, likely a better notion of how that individual thinks than I do about someone on this board.

As for "studying to be a priest," I don't recall saying that to you, you have deduced it. There are many students here who will not be priests, I may be one of them.

I would however hope that the already ordained clergy (who have had a seminary education supposedly equal to that of priests) of "Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome" would have a clearer notion of what truly is the practice of Orthodoxy before making such erroneous statements. One cannot be mislead by news articles or by an isolated conversation with a poorly informed faithful or clergy.

If I were to isolate the many comments made to me when I was BC by the faithful and by the clergy it might make your hair stand on end. One should hopefully be able to sort through all of that before parroting those same statements back.

Oh, and I still don't and wont read minds.

Tony

#55134 11/04/03 10:00 PM
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Posted by Orthodox Catholic:

"he rightly critiqued the West's more static view of Mary's holiness."


Dear Alex,

Could you point me to a resource in Latin Catholic theology or doctrine or dogma that supports this assertion?

I'm asking because on a purely human level, Mary grew. I've always been taught that she grew Spiritually in her realtionship with God. The dynamic nature of her loving relationship with God, especially in the person of Her Son, has been a core of the teaching about Mary that I've learned.

You are asserting something different and I'd like to confirm that statement from Latin sources.

Thanks for the help.

Steve

#55135 11/04/03 10:53 PM
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Since I have been corrected by more learned Orthodox faithful here on this forum than the woman I spoke with on Sunday, I have come to realize that inter-Communion among the Orthodox is allowed, if and only if the communicant has made prior arrangements with the pastor. This is due because the priest is charged with protecting the Sacred Mysteries at his ordination, and he cannot communicate heretics, schismatics, excommunicated persons, i.e, those who are unworthy to partake of the Holy Mysteries.

Tony, would this be a correct statement?

#55136 11/04/03 11:05 PM
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[He represents the "straight goods" of Orthodoxy here without wishy-washy ecumenical "feel good" views.]

[He is, in fact, our Mark of Ephesus who, as you know, when he left Florence without signing the instrument of union, prompted Pope Eugenius to say, "We have accomplished nothing."]

Why thank you Alex! That's one one the nicest things anyone has said to me in a long time.

Not only have we learned to respect each other but to understand each other.

Just came back from being out all afternoon. There's some good stuff being discussed here. I may p*** a lot of you off. But I do get your juices running. At least give me credit for that.

And, once again, though I don't agree with a lot of what is posted here, it is still the best discussion site around!

OrthoMan

#55137 11/04/03 11:33 PM
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And it is always enlivened by your presence Orthoman!

#55138 11/05/03 01:30 AM
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Tony,

Thanks for the post.

Yes, I was rather surprised by Fr. Thomas� post. I note, however, that he did not make the disparaging comments about blood that you made. biggrin

You are quite correct in stating that you have not told me that you are �studying to be a priest�. It seems rather apparent to me that this is the Lord�s will for you. I am often wrong and may be in this instance, but I don�t think so.

I am not surprised that the GOA person that Father Deacon John talked with assumed that he could not take communion in another jurisdiction. There is a woeful lack of education among all Christians.

I wouldn�t put such a high expectation on clergy. I�ve seen all kinds of unique takes on theology come out of the mouth of clergy. Everyone is a product of their formation and it is no secret that the priestly formation has been less than excellent in our Church during the past century. Restoring a proper Orthodox Byzantine formation of our people and clergy is a multigenerational process.

Regarding reading minds, I certainly can�t do it. Experience, however, tells me that when someone posts something really strange that it is either poorly worded or based on inaccurate information. The best response is to ask for a restatement of the question.

Admin

PS: I�m glad you liked my use of the word �clobber�. I just bought a Looney Tunes DVD as a Christmas present and that was probably what put it into my mind. biggrin

#55139 11/05/03 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Administrator:

I am not surprised that the GOA person that Father Deacon John talked with assumed that he could not take communion in another jurisdiction. There is a woeful lack of education among all Christians.
Administrator,

I would say that the level of education among many Christians of any and all persuasions is catastrophic. I do think however that in the case of those Orthodox faithful who go to church regularly and participate in the life of the church they would be aware that they can at least receive communion in another Orthodox church. That is not only my guess, it is backed up with a conversation with a cradle GOA communicant. I asked her if the least informed GOA communicant would think he/she could receive communion in another Orthodox parish, she said most certainly. Enough of that.

Tony

#55140 11/05/03 02:30 AM
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Quote
Tony wrote:
That is not only my guess, it is backed up with a conversation with a cradle GOA communicant. I asked her if the least informed GOA communicant would think he/she could receive communion in another Orthodox parish, she said most certainly. Enough of that.
Tony,

Father Deacon John appears to have found a member of the GOA who believes otherwise and told him so. His first hand experience with an actual member of the GOA trumps your cradle GOA friend�s opinion. Maybe we can introduce her to your friend and she can explain the Orthodox teaching on this matter.

Admin

#55141 11/05/03 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
Since I have been corrected by more learned Orthodox faithful here on this forum than the woman I spoke with on Sunday, I have come to realize that inter-Communion among the Orthodox is allowed, if and only if the communicant has made prior arrangements with the pastor. This is due because the priest is charged with protecting the Sacred Mysteries at his ordination, and he cannot communicate heretics, schismatics, excommunicated persons, i.e, those who are unworthy to partake of the Holy Mysteries.

Tony, would this be a correct statement?
Fr. Deacon John,

No, that is partly problematic still, "if and only if the communicant has made prior arrangements with the pastor." As Brian said "because the Patriarchate of Moscow and the Ecumenical Patriarchate (as well as the Church of Greece) are in communion with each other, so there is no impediment to the reception of the Eucharist." And then Fr. Thomas "Intercommunion between the various Orthodox Churches is defacto." It is part of being Orthodox.

The problem that arises and is usually overlooked by non-Orthodox, and some Orthodox, is that the situation in the so-called diaspora is woeful. Since 1917 the situation of the Orthodox outside of the traditionally Orthodox lands has been subject to much difficulty. There is no precedent for the overlapping jurisdictions in the Americas, Western Europe and Australia. Also, as you note schism and other problems have arisen together with this. In Greece there is one jurisdiction, in Russia the same (Ukraine is another sad story), but that is the case in most Orthodox lands..even the ones not as historically strong within Orthodxy such as Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Japan and elsewhere, there is only one Orthodox jurisdiction in those places, thank God. Of course in Moscow people are not impeded when approaching the chalice in the proper way, it is presumed they are Orthodox, the same in other places.

Here it is another story. Besides the "chaos that passes for Orthodoxy" as one of my professors refers to the jurisdictional confusion, there is the issue that there are many non-Orthodox who for one reason or another wish to approach the chalice. The response to these difficulties has been different in different jurisdictions. In the GOA, Orthodox, even those unknown to the pastor, approach and are communicated. Within the churches of the Russian tradition this is not quite the case. People are sometimes questioned and may be refused. This is why I was told that one always informs ahead of time that one will be approaching, either at the candle-stand or by phone or email or some way. It is a matter of the local practice of that jurisdiction.

Further, "heretics, schismatics, excommunicated persons" are not unworthy, they are simply no longer part of the Orthodox church and as such are not communicated. One may be communicated to his salvation or condemnation. One of the motives for inquiring about the last confession is not to ascertain the worthiness of anyone but his canonical state. He may be a sinner yet Orthodox and (gasp!) a saint yet outside of Orthodoxy.

So, "if and only if" is too limiting. I learned in undergrad Psych that "abnormal situations elicit abnormal responses." If we keep that in mind, that will help us see that the picture of Orthodoxy presented here in North American, for example, is not indicative of how things should be.

Tony

#55142 11/05/03 02:42 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
Quote
Tony wrote:
That is not only my guess, it is backed up with a conversation with a cradle GOA communicant. I asked her if the least informed GOA communicant would think he/she could receive communion in another Orthodox parish, she said most certainly. Enough of that.
Tony,

Father Deacon John appears to have found a member of the GOA who believes otherwise and told him so. His first hand experience with an actual member of the GOA trumps your cradle GOA friend�s opinion. Maybe we can introduce her to your friend and she can explain the Orthodox teaching on this matter.

Admin
Administrator,

We can play this game until the ages of ages..or forever and ever if you wish wink

What I did not tell you is that my friend said she thinks most layfolk in the GOA think they can go to RC communion since that is what the RC priests tell them. Yet that certainly does not make it so. Nor does Fr. Deacon's acquaintance apparently think that way.

If you want to play one-upmanship I can find BCs/GCs on both sides of the Atlantic that would make your head spin.

If that is the point just tell me and we can start a new thread "Let the games begin!"

Tony

#55143 11/05/03 02:32 PM
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Dear Orthoman,

Did you see djs compliment you too? smile

Will wonders never cease?

The Administrator has obviously thought better of targetting you and I and is going after Tony right now.

He is right, though, that he is always bad at predicting ecclesial careers for people.

I think he once predicted I'd turn out to be an archimandrite for a vagante order or something . . .

That't not gonna happen either! smile

God bless you, Orthodox Man of God!

Alex

#55144 11/05/03 02:34 PM
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Dear Tony,

I see you have your hands full with the Administrator - just a note to say you were right about the litia verses.

Alex

#55145 11/05/03 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Tony,

I see you have your hands full with the Administrator - just a note to say you were right about the litia verses.

Alex
Alex,

Thanks for the note. This, however, belongs in the other thread where this was discussed.

Tony

#55146 11/05/03 11:05 PM
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Yes or No! wink

I my personal opinion if they believe what the Latin Catholic Church proclaims (theologically, spiritually etc.), if they are sincerely trying to live out that Catholic faith comprehensively and authentically, then I have no problem with them thinking themselves still somehow part of the Catholic Tradition - albeit tragically and (please God) temporarily not in communion with their Mother Church, whose faith they are trying their very best to accept and live.

And where they still lack full Catholic faith or praxis, I support their efforts to regain them and live them out.

And I support their efforts to return to full communion with their Mother Church.

And I understand their relunctance to break communion with those they are presently in communion with and I understand the terrible pain and difficulty that they find themselves in at this present time in their church's history.

May God be with them and guide them.

Herb

Quote
Originally posted by OrthoMan:
Herb writes:

However, you are evading the question so I will rephrase it -

Based on the same criteria you use to justify identifying yourself as 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome', do you agree with those in the Anglican Church who claim they are still part of the Catholic Church? A simple yes or no will suffice.

OrthoMan

#55147 11/06/03 05:40 AM
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Deacon John Montalvo,

It has been brought to my attention in a private communication that one of my posts may have been misinterpreted as implying that I believe you lied regarding the situation we most recently discussed in this thread. I have not at any time believed that. I can't see how that was arrived at but however it may have been misconstrued I want to correct that amd apologize for that misunderstading. I believed then and now that you accepted faulty information.

Tony

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