www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Statement from the National Catholic Worker Gathering

Fr. Serge, with all due respect, how can success ever be judged to be certain? I thought the criterion was that one had to have reasonable hope of success. That is certainly not the same thing as certitude of success.

The only thing I have a problem with in this catholic worker's statement is the suggestion that soldiers should refuse to participate in the war. I will say that while I am personally against the war in Iraq (I think it is bad policy), I do not think that it is self evident that it is just or unjust. Good people can agree to disagree.

Personally, I have to say that I think the excessively specified and comprehensive social teaching of the Catholic Church, is very much a problem. It seems to me that the Church should focus on saving souls and let those instituted in secular authority worry about how the world should be governed. It really isn't any of the Church's business deciding which economic theories one should hold; whether there should be a minimum wage; whether the conditions for just application of the death penalty and defensive war are met, etc. The ecclesiastics simply have no competence in this area. This is the province of the laity who live and work in the world. Forgive me if I cause some contention here. It is not intentional, I am just speaking my mind. Peace in Christ,

Joe

The fact that Iraq was not engaged in an attack against the USA, or anyone else for that matter, at the time the war began makes a claim for just war very problematic. I suppose one could make an argument on the basis of the threat Hussein posed to his own countrymen. But that is especially weak justification for this war under these circumstances, in my opinion, and here's why I think this to be the case: under just war theory, if a war is just, it is a sin not to engage in that war. If it would be sinful for us not to wage war against Iraq for the cause of removing Saddam Hussein, then there are a whole host of other countries we are obligated to attack for the sake of overthrowing their evil dictators-then this brings us to the point Fr. Serge has raised about reasonable chance of success. It is not at all reasonable to think that we can depose every tyrant out there. This war in Iraq and the very notion of pre-emptive war doesn't measure to the very strict and narrow requirements of just war theory, in my opinion and I'm perplexed as to how Christians think it is. However, I would add again-we do not ask soldiers and sailors to determine which war is just and which war isn't-we ask them to do their duty, which includes obeying lawful orders. I don't think it's necessary for us to convince ourselves that an unjust war is just in order to honor the service of our brothers and sisters who place their lives in jeopardy in performing their duties.
In peace,
Ryan

I could not disagree more strongly. Read Holy Scripture and you will find that the Word of God has a great deal to say about questions of public or social morality, and it is the Church's obligation to proclaim God Word. Holy Scripture has a vast amount to say about wealth and poverty-and on the whole, it's very condemning of those who are wealthy and neglect the poor. Holy Scripture is very condemning of those employers who exploit their employees. The words of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ himself speak to issues of violence. Though I'm not a pacifist myself, I certainly can see how one might read the four Gospels and walk away believing that Christ taught pacifism. Also, one can make an argument that he did away with the death penalty in saying to those who would stone the woman caught in the very act of adultery (a sin that required the imposition of death by stoning under the Levitical law), "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." I would also challenge this assertion: "The ecclesiastics simply have no competence in this area. This is the province of the laity who live and work in the world." Church leaders live and work in the world as well and they have been charged with the responsiblity of proclaiming God's word-which often requires them to speak out against sin-even those sins committed by those who hold the political power. The Old Testament prophets did this, John the Baptist did this, Jesus Christ did this-I could go on and on. Should Church leaders make the daily operational decisions involved in running the governments of the world? No, or course not. Should they call out governments as well as individuals when they sin? Absolutely-the failure to do so would be sin on their part.

Joe,

I think you bring up interesting points, but I think your assertions of what the Church teaches is false. For instance, the Catholic Church does not say that there is only one economic system that should be followed, but rather that there are certain principles which should govern just systems and help Christians to discern the just from the unjust.

As to the "competence of ecclesiaistics", I think you paint with too broad a brush. How do you know this to be the case? Do you know the resume' of every hierarch? Some actually had secular careers prior to being ordained. I would also add that often the laity are involved in commissions for the purpose of research and ensuring that the bishops have access to their knowledge, experience and expertise in a variety of domains.

If you have not had the chance, read through Gaudium et Spes in the documents of Vatican II to gain an appreciation for the rather comprehensive vision of the interplay between the Gospel and the altar of the home, the marketplace, government institutions, etc etc.

If the Church is to remain silent about Gospel principles in the temporal order, I think you risk emptying the Gospel of its power by establishing a parallel magisterium in the "laity" who are generally beholden to the forces of the marketplace and the state. In other words, it is a recipe for silencing the Church as a voice of conscience in the face of these two tyrannies.

Your position also risks driving a wedge between the laity and the Church, between faith and culture, between heaven and earth, etc etc...ensuring that the Church (and the Gospel) has little to do with or say about the muck and mud of day to day challenges. It even smacks slightly of a form of anti-incarnational Gnosticism.

And can you think of anything less Byzantine?

With that said, I think some of the documents to come out of the NCCB over the years purport to be authoritative Catholic teaching, but in truth they are not binding in any way on the faith of Catholics in the US.

Here is the recently released "Compendium of Catholic Social Doctrine". It is really a refreshing read for any interested Christian.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Blessings,

Gordo

I wish this forum had more members who actually were raised in the middle east. Instead of terorist paranoid USA people who never could imagine the life of christians in iraq and how they also sometimes killed by US troops.

As for �preventive war,� Ratzinger flatly stated in September 2002, the �concept of a �preventive war� does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.� The then-cardinal�s remarks also suggested that the United Nations, rather than George W. Bush, would be the proper public authority to decide upon war with Iraq: �the United Nations � should make the final decision,� he said. �It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power.�

The price paid by antiwar Catholic conservatives for upholding the pope�s thought in foreign policy as well as in cultural battles at home has been ostracism from the respectable Right. Even the late Brent Bozell, a founding father of postwar conservatism�William F. Buckley�s brother-in-law, ghostwriter for Barry Goldwater�s Conscience of a Conservative�found himself marginalized after he and the Catholic magazine he founded, Triumph, began to grow critical of the Vietnam War. The conservative movement that has built itself a big tent in so many other respects still counts dissent in the foreign-policy arena as an excommunicable offense.

Yet in the end, American Catholics are not faced with a choice between conservatism and their faith�conservatives in the realist, anti-militarist traditions of George Kennan, Robert Nisbet, Russell Kirk, and the 1930s Old Right have always held foreign-policy views compatible with Benedict�s. But between what commonly passes for conservatism today, as represented by the president�s Iraq policy, and the vision of the pope there is an unbridgeable gap, on one side or the other of which American Catholics will have to take a stand.

I'm thinking about my previous post and it came out more harsh and strong than I intended it to. Really, I think I would have rather not posted it now. Perhaps, the essential point I wanted to make was that the Church teaches the Gospel and with the Gospel, there are general principles for how we should live and act in the world. But, the way in which those principles are applied in specific cases depends just as much on the ones responsible for those decisions as it does the clergy. This means that a careful distinction needs to be made between a moral principle and its application.

I am not a theologian, so truth be told, it probably isn't my business to comment on how the Bishops of the Church formulate social teaching. Peace in Christ,

Joe

Joe asks me, quite reasonably, how anyone could possibly know in advance that success is certain. I haven't the foggiest idea! History is littered with warmongers who claimed to be certain of their imminent victory (the list would be lengthy and depressing).

I never said that I endorsed the just war theory - and in fact I do not endorse it.

Father Serge

To All,

Excellent thread! Excellent thoughts!

Criostior and Fr. Serge, I commend your boldness!

I voted for GW twice. I remember 9/11 and pray nothing like it ever occurs again...anywhere!

That said, I long ago came to the conclusion the debacle that IS the "War In Iraq" should never have happened. I bailed on this administration even before Colin Powell did.

Please don't be so narrow-minded as to throw the "Islam vs. Christianity" card on the table regarding this war. There is much more involved than that. We have empowered "extremist Islam" with this war rather than quelling it.


I am a blue collar worker and sons and daughters of my friends and co-workers are serving in the Armed Forces in Iraq and around the world. I realize they made the decision to join the military, and they serve proudly. I pray for them.

I also pray our country's leaders find an amicable solution to all that has transpired since the invasion of Iraq.

Referring back to Dorothy Day, she "was" a communist who came to embrace the Gospel and therefore Christianity, Catholic Christianity, to it's fullest. I believe her cause for sainthood is presenly being established.

Peace ot All,
Bill

Father Serge,

Also, I just wanted you to know I meant no tone of disrespect. The question just blurted out of me. Please forgive me if I sounded disrespectful. Peace in Christ,

Joe

Dear Joe,
You didn't sound disrespectful and I was not offended. I simply wanted to make my own position clear.

with every blessing,

Faher Serge

To All,

I would like to apologize for injecting specific personal political comments in my post above here in the "Faith & Worship" forum.

I was in a hurry when I posted as my daughter was waiting to use the computer.

My fault,
Bill

Of interest and insight concerning Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement.

www.tcrnews2.com/anotherday.html [tcrnews2.com]

www.tcrnews2.com/Activism3D.html [tcrnews2.com]

Dear Bill,
thanks for the posting on Dorothy Day and the sad aberrations of some of those who have the nerve to claim to follow her.
Saddest of all is the certainty that abandoning the Faith will lead in the long rung to the abandonment of the social commitment as well (history offers only too many examples of this inexorable "progression"). Having abandoned the Faith, they will end up with nothing.

Father Serge

I disagree with the conclusion that the War in Iraq has further served to enrage Muslims.

They are and have been enraged at the West for 1400 years.

Dear Mr. Clean,

So have been many Eastern Christians...for almost that long anyway!

Go Steelers!
Bill