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#56512 03/18/06 03:55 AM
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Wolfgang:

Little 'ole me is not about to tell the Byzantine Catholics that they should be saying Matins instead of the Scriptural Rosary.

I just try and do what they do, and ask questions when it seems appropriate.

JP

#56513 03/18/06 04:10 AM
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What is Americanisation supposed to mean? It sounds like something to be wary off. I am sure this is something a Pope now long dead warned the Church to be wary of.

Where is that cuppa. I put it down here somewhere.

ICXC
NIKA

#56514 03/18/06 05:50 AM
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The great melting pot of America is redefining what it means to be a Byzantine Catholic. The encyclicals of Pope John Paul II to return to the Eastern roots apply very nicely to Europe, but you will never convince Americans they apply to us.

The Byzantine Catholic Church in America is becoming a Church of diversity. It will include descendants of Eastern Europeans and Western Europeans. It will also include Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.

Each group is bringing part of its culture to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I look forward to the Divine Liturgy the day before the national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King. Imagine the Divine Liturgy on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadelupe, the Empress of America!

E Pluribus Unum applies to the Byzantine Catholic Church. Keeping that which is best of a group's Sacred Tradition? A resounding, yes! Blind allegiance to the ancient practices of our foreign ancestors? A resounding, no!

This is the Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church. We give a nod and a wink to those who complain of Latinization. However, it just doesn't really apply to us.

Some day, hopefully sooner rather than later, there will be a Patriarch of the American Byzantine Catholic Church. Then we shall sing: "Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord ... His truth is marching on."

Amen, Hallelujah!

JP

#56515 03/18/06 06:04 AM
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THAT'S the spirit! Let's not fuss over what an American Byzantine church should be praying!

I would try the Taize' prayer too, it is very popular, and one can do prostrations.

+T+
Michael

#56516 03/18/06 12:03 PM
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Dear John Patrick,

None of the UGCC parishes I know have ever prayed the Rosary in Church before the Divine Liturgy or publicly in any way in Church.

There are parishes who use the Stations of the Cross, but I've only been to Akathists to the Passion.

If the tradition of reciting the Rosary publicly before the Divine Liturgy is in place, then it is in place.

There is no rubric regarding standing during several of the Mysteries - perhaps it is a kind of adaptation of this paraliturgical prayer to the "standing-sitting" rubrics with respect to the singing of the Psalms or to keep everyone's attention focused with standing/sitting breaks.

St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the rosary/rule of prayer of the Mother of God daily as a private devotion and got all his spiritual children to recite it. He and some other Russian saints actually said it was THE most important prayer to the Mother of God to be said, and even ahead of the Akathist! I read this in an online article in Russian about the Holy Elder.

But St Seraphim clearly regarded it as a private spiritual exercise that could be said with others, of course. At Diveyevo in Russia, the Orthodox nuns go around the perimeter of their monastery together and sing the 150 Hail Mary's out loud as they go.

But this wouldn't be a prayer to be said as a kind of public service in Church, ideally.

St Seraphim, in his rule for the nuns of Diveyevo, prescribed the singing of a Paraclesis service to the Mother of God prior to the Divine Liturgy - this was to prepare for the Divine Liturgy via a meditation on the Divine Incarnation which is what the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy is also designed to do.

Alex

#56517 03/19/06 05:59 AM
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Orthodox Catholic:

I don't know why the Byzantine Catholics in St. Louis pray the Rosary before the Roman Catholic visitors arrive for Divine Liturgy. My high school football coach taught us to always show up 15 minutes before any meeting. That is how I learned that the Byantine Catholics are praying the Rosary.

Tonight, Father Weber said that Matins would be two hours before Divine Liturgy on Easter. I thought Easter was called Pascha, but that again shows you how little I know about Eastern Traditions.

I asked a Byzantine Catholic after Divine Liturgy tonight to explain Matins to me. He was most kind and said that they are basically the same thing as Vespers.

I told him I didn't know anything about Vespers except that it is some practice of the Anglicans/Episcopalians. Cradle born Irish-American Catholics are definitley not taught what the Anglicans/Episcopalians do.

He smiled and said just show up 15 minutes before Matins on Easter (Pascha?), and they will show me what to do.

JP

#56518 03/19/06 02:32 PM
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Hello John,
Matins, Vespers, Compline etc. are what Roman Catholics call the Liturgy of the Hours.

Roman Catholic clergy are normally required to pray them every day, but it is structured in such a way as to be possible to do as a private prayer. It is now regaining popularity among the laity in the RC world, I prayed the hours for several years myself when I was still a Roman Catholic.

The tradition has been preserved in monasteries in the west, and most hours there are done communally. The practice at cathedrals and some parishes continued for many centuries but has fallen into disuse, especially with the need to offer more than one Mass on a Sunday. Most Roman Catholics are barely aware of the older Christian practice.

(BTW The Anglicans either retained the praying of hours in the parishes or restored them at some point, but it is definitely an ancient Catholic/Orthodox practice.)

In the east the Tradition has had the hours done communally up to the present day, both in the monasteries and in the parishes. It is actually an integral part of the liturgical life of an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox. Vespers is in the evening, it is actually the first prayer of the day (which begins at sundown). Compline is night prayer (nocturnes) and Matins is at sunrise.

In the Slavic tradition Vespers and Matins are the opportunities for the Faithful to make confession, so it is very important indeed.

After the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod the liturgical hours in the parishes somehow became suppressed. No one has yet been able to offer a good traceable explanation for this but the result was an introduction of the rosary in place of Matins before Divine Liturgy. This contrasted with the standard Orthodox practice which continued as before.

Thus an entire aspect of Easten spirituality was lost to the Eastern Catholics of central Europe. It had tragic consequences for the church.

In light of the fact that Rome has ordered the Eastern churches to restore their traditions, today one would hope that the missions would encourage a revival of the authentic practices, not sustain and encourage the abuses of the past.

+T+
Michael

#56519 03/19/06 07:36 PM
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Brother Michael,

There are many who still pray/practice the pre Vat II Divine Office(many Benedictines do)...especially if one attends the indult and uses the 1962 Missal...I do use & supplement my own with a sliver of the Byzantine version...I think the Lord appreciates a variety...

james

#56520 03/21/06 07:40 PM
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Jakub:

Your comment that "the Lord appreciates a variety" is very insightful and summarizes Thesesian theology.

She wrote:

"I understand how all the flowers [Jesus] has created are beautiful, how the splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the Lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or the delightful simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wild flowers.

"And so it is in the world of souls, Jesus' garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to the Lilies and roses, but He has created smaller ones and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God's glances when He looks down at his feet. Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be.

"I understood, too, that Our Lord's love is revealed as perfectly in the most simple soul who resists His grace in nothing as in the most excellent soul; in fact, since the nature of love is to humble oneself, if all souls resembled those of the Holy Doctors who illumined the Church with the clarity of their teachings, it seems God would not want to descend so low when coming to their heart." Story of a Soul, page 4, translated by John Clarke O.C.D. (3rd Ed. 1996).

Yes, I also believe the Lord appreciates a variety.

JP

#56521 03/24/06 12:05 AM
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Jakub, have you ever used the three-volume John XXIII Divine Office? I very much liked that edition. I do really love the lessons of Matins in the Roman Office. I am not sure what the Clear Creek Benedictine monastery in Oklahoma uses (a foundation of Fontgambault and very traditional) - I'll ask Fr. Prior next time I am down there.
FDD

#56522 03/24/06 12:17 AM
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Just a guess but ... the Antiphonale Monasticum for the Offices and the Graduale Romanun for Mass.

ICXC
NIKA

#56523 03/24/06 12:31 AM
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Deacon Diak,

I should be so lucky to own them...I get by with a 1962 short breviary(Benedictine) which I love and use the most(plus the Hours of Prayer wink ), I also add a 1965 Lauds Vespers & Compline Roman Office, both made at St. Johns Abbey(Liturgical Press), the present versions just don't compare in content or verse structure etc.

Some monasteries/orders follow the older 1 week office, some the 2 or 4 week version.

james

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