www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Server conduct

Slava Isusu Christ! Slava Na Viki!
Glory to Jesus Christ. Glory Forever!

In another forum, an observation was made that at a local parish, the altar servers maintain silence during the Divine Liturgy.

Are there canons or rubrics that require this state of discipline? At St. Elias\'s website [saintelias.com] , it states: " pray along with the Service using a Liturgy book, & Join the singing - its more fun and makes the Service seem shorter!!! (And it glorifies God and helps people too!) ".

I realize the honor given to be allowed to serve our Priest at the Holy Altar, and wish to ensure that we maintain proper reverence and discipline, according to the established canons, rubrics, and traditions (both Capital and little Ts).

Thank you for your help.

In Christ,

Michael

It really states this ?

its more fun and makes the Service seem shorter!!!

I do have some concerns...

james

Greetings. For clarification, my original question is in regards to altar servers at a Divine Liturgy, and not at a Roman Catholic Church.

To the Blessed Fathers and Father Deacons who read and post at Byzcath, do your altar servers participate during the Divine Liturgy with singing/chanting , or do you prefer that the servers maintain silence?

Thank you.

Michael

It seems St. Elias has its priorities out of order. Shouldn't the primary reason behind altar server participation be to "glorif[y] God" and only secondly be to make is "more fun and make the Service seem shorter"?

Logos Teen

Jakub and Teen,

Appreciate your feedback on the St. Elias site. I understand your concerns and you may wish to provide feedback to the webmaster or Father at St. Elias regarding your feelings.

I am quoting the information as a basis of what is/may be appropriate conduct for an altar server, since resources for alter servers of Eastern Churches are few and far between on the web, or maybe I just have not found the magical search terms. :-).

If you have an answer based upon the Eastern Church guidelines, I would appreciate it! :-)

Thanks,

Mike

There were 3 pages of instructions for altar servers/subdeacons on the St. Elias site!!! What could anyone find fault with in those very Orthodox instructions??? Priorities out of order??? When every Greek Catholic parish restores worship to the point where St Elias has, then perhaps someone can criticize them. All I can do is say, "get a grip!" :rolleyes:

Teen, that is ridiculous. That parish has been a lighthouse for many to return to a more traditional observance of our beautiful liturgical heritage. Sure, there may be a better way of conveying any message. Look at their fruits and not one or two sentences, if that is possible.

Michael, we have some servers who do sing and take part singing loudly and some who don't. As a deacon and the person primarily responsible in our parish for their order and conduct I have taken the Eastern approach of ensuring and instilling good general composure and abundant outward reverence.

After that I let them vocally participate according to their own comfort and in response to the movements of the Spirit.

Please pardon my criticism, I'm at a point in my life that wordings associated with worship that mention fun & the speed of service rattle me. I have seen and witnessed too much in the Latin Church, however St. Elias's site is much more precise & complete than my present diocese.

I can understand many are attempting to recruit young people to serve...but on my side they appear to be not as serious as I was when I served 46 years ago, I do not fault them totally, it is the training and instruction that is the main fault.

But I'm just a mid-age geezer...

james

JohnK and Diak,

No, it is not ridiculous.

Don't read too much into my post; I'm not saying that St. Elias has all its priorities out of order ( DUH!). Obviously that wouldn't make much sense as I'm well aware of the parish's status as a "lighthouse," etc.

I'm saying that in this particular instance, the priorities are mixed up. Making speeding the service up and having fun as the subject of the sentence and sidelining glorification of God to the periphery, inside parantheses no less, is mixing up your priorities...I really don't care whether you agree or not.

Don't blow the whole thing out of proportion; I don't seriously think that St. Elias values fun and speedy services more than the glorification of God when altar serving, but this is what it implies.

Logos Teen

Our servers chant along with the people.

I believe there is something in the Scriptures that state, "sing joyfully to the Lord." Nothing about singing 'sorrowfully' or morbid-like. I've heard Divine Liturgies sound like funeral durges.

Why can't the Liturgy be "fun?" What is wrong with that? "Fun" doesn't necessarily mean playing around or goofing off. It can mean en-JOYing what one is doing. If putting aside "earthly cares" is considered fun by our youth, especially our servers, then more power to them. They - and we - better get used to it because Heaven - assuming we will all go there - is an eternal liturgy. Now, wouldn't THAT be fun? Why should liturgy or Heaven be a form of Hell?

Why should the amusement parks, commercial businesses, game CD makers, and the sports industry have a monopoly on our joy?

Don't we sing, "Joy to the world" during the Christmas season? Why can we sing about joy during the liturggy but not live it? We need more joy, not sorrow.

We also sing, "God grant many years .... many happy years." Is happiness banned? Should we look more straight-faced like an icon, should we be always crying because we are spending more time with the community of faith in the presence of the Lord, or should we look like pictures of Orthodox bishops with a serious frown, long beard, and fancy hat?

The Lord chided the Apostles for preventing the children approaching the Lord. Let them approach him. Children, not adults, still know how to carry a happy face; can still en-JOY the moment for what it is worth.

Maybe WE forgot how to have fun?

If children consider the liturgy fun and our servers can have fun serving the Lord, then WE did something right as parents.

=======

From dictionary.com:

fun ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fn) n.

A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.
Enjoyment; amusement: have fun at the beach.
Playful, often noisy, activity.

intr.v. Informal funned, fun�ning, funs
To behave playfully; joke.

adj. Informal
Enjoyable; amusing: �You're a real fun guy� (Margaret Truman).

Idiom:
for/in fun
As a joke; playfully.

=======

I believe the word "fun" CAN be taken as an informal adjective rather than a mere idiom.

Joe

Well said, Joe. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Yes, Teen, it is ridiculous what you have said. Priorities at that parish are quite appropriate, and would we have more like that indeed.

Having been to that parish on many occasions and seen with what love they all serve there, I won't judge by a couple of words that as I said could probably have been put better. I have seen their fruits.

"And that great beast You made to have fun"...

TEEN---

We're talking about engaging young and teenage boys in the liturgy here--having to stand for an hour and a half and be attentive can seem like an eternity to one that age. I believe that they are the target of those instructions, no? When you're 11 and your feet hurt, thinking that you are giving praise to God can be a bit down on the list. I have two sons who serve every week--I hear their complaints. (It took me a week to get the sound of their moaning out of my head after Strasty this year!) Lighten up.

John K

"...and the monsters you made to play with." Sorry Diak, I couldn't resist. :p

Father Deacon Diak and Joe,

Thanks to you both for your replies. I do value your input immensely and it has helped me seek the information I needed.

Singing joyfully to the Lord,

Michael [not the world's oldest altar server, but getting there :-) ]

Teen,
When I was say 8-12, being an Altar boy for just about 2 hours standing is tough. I think we all have stories of things that happened both funny and almost "traumatic" (I almost englufed the whole sacristy in flames.)

And you don't know how many burns in the carpet were from me lighting the thurible.

We were never encouraged to sing/chant with the congregation. We were just there. I don't blame anyone for this. It was just how it was.

But the quote from the St. Elias website is correct. Once I started to develop a deep love for Eastern Christian music and chant, I would sing along and then harmonize, etc. The service went by a lot faster because in prayer-- there is no time!! It is just you an God. Time is a human doing, and therefore vain, especially when encountering God.

Thanks to my active chanting and signing with the congregation as an altar server, I know now the whole DL, in both languages, and I can now cantor at a Liturgy without any music for the most part.

Also, if you look at the St. Elias site as a whole, you will see that there is a lot of humor and things that are said tounge and cheek.

If you doubt their intentions, just say, "Hey, they are Canadians anyways!' :p

-uc, the once pyromaniac altar boy turned diak, choir director, and ameatuer composer

fun ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fn) n.

A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.
Enjoyment; amusement: have fun at the beach.
Playful, often noisy, activity.


Well, the Liturgy seldom involves the beach. Otherwise, this description is not particularly problematic. The Liturgy is intended to be enjoyed (I know this comes as a shock, but there it is). And it certainly has playful elements (if you are highly erudite, you may say "ludic dimensions" instead).

Incognitus