www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Dumped my post, eh?

Okay. Don't really blame ya. I was pretty hot about the whole issue and said a few things which were intemperate at best.

Think I should go to confession for my crack about Protestants?

Still.....those pro-abort Catholics......yeeeeeesh!!!!



Brother Ed

Ed,

It's okay to be upset or even angry. However, your post went far beyond that. Both the tone of voice and the actions you wished you could carry out were inappropriate.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator

DEO GRATIAS.

May the Lord make all our words soft and tender, for tomorrow we may have to eat them.

I know that I need to think things over before posting, to reduce the caloric intake of overheated words. Sometimes when I get upset about a topic, I will type in a reply, and then decide to delete it before posting.

Dear John,

how right you are. Luckily everything I write is consistent with Church policy .

Dear Ed,

perhaps confession for all of us is the needed order of the day.

God Bless!.

Fr. Deacon Edward --

This is still not quite over for me and I do wish that you would engage me a bit in some substantive discussion regarding the men I encountered, my approach to them, and my feelings in general regarding this whole issue.

There seems to be a rather soft approach to obdurant rebellion and general wickedness. It seems that the Church is "loving" to the point of refusing to judge at all.

Is this a misperception on my part?

Scripture contains some pretty graphic descriptions of the fate of those who do not make friends of God through faith and obedience. Why then does the Church seems so chummy with those who rebel against the teaching of the Church and its policies? Kissin' up to Muslims and Jews, both of whom HATE CHRIST, opposing the death penalty for murderers, rapists, and kidnappers, eccumenicism with those who hold the truth heretically. Sheeeeeesh, where does it end?

I suppose one of the reasons I am rather pointed about this is that my conversion cost me a lot emotionally and in the strain on friendships. I found truth and believe that truth found is truth worth obedience, therefore, I have a real hard time with people who handle the "pearl of great price" with dirty hands and toss it around like a cheap plastic football.

Anyhow, I would appreciate it if you would take the objectionable parts of what I said (like the whole post) and discuss it with me, point by point.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Ed,

Unfortunately, when I deleted your post I did not keep a copy of it. I deal with so many different issues on a day-to-day basis that, frankly, I don't remember each of your salient points.

However, let's start with today's Gospel. Jesus encounters the demon possessed man and the demons recognize Jesus and ask him to leave. Why? Because Jesus is going to ask for a change. He asks the man's name because we start with our name when we identify ourself. However, Jesus is more concerned with who we are rather than what we call ourselves.

We are called to be like the "mystery of the moon." The moon creates no light -- it only reflects the sun. You and I are called to change our lives so that we reflect the Son. If we are not doing that then we are not following Jesus.

As Christians we do not judge people, we judge actions. You transgressed when you attacked the persons rather than their actions. Each of those people is made in the image and likeness of God. We are called to help them to make the image and likeness so clear that they, too, reflect the Son. Your post not only did not do that, but you called for their excommunication. In fact, you claimed that if you were a priest you would excommunicate them. That would be a serious error on your part for they have done nothing that would warrant excommunication, and the days when a priest, deacon or sub-deacon could excommunicate are long gone.

Excommunication is a medicinal penalty designed to call the sinner to repentance, to metanoia. Yet your call was to rejection and condemnation, not to conversion. Jesus did not condemn that demonaic, he called for conversion.

Each of us is called to a process of metanoia, not just daily but minute by minute. We are to turn from sin and turn to God (as St. Paul so rightly adjures).

Edward, deacon and sinner

There are Catholics and Orthodox who are against abortion, the Death Penalty, euthanasia, nuclear weapons etc or in my belief , and more positively, Pro-Life in the deepest sense.

Brian in Sacramento

Recommended Website:

http://www.incommunion.org/

As Christians we do not judge people, we judge actions. You transgressed when you attacked the persons rather than their actions.

Okay, now we have a discussion, and I hope, a fine one to come.

How does what I do exist in a vacumn from what I am:

Mt 7:15 � Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Fruits. Fruits is WHAT WE CHOOSE TO DO, right? In other words, if a man is intrinsically evil, he shows it by BEING AND DOING EVIL, right? This certainly doesn't seem to indicate the separation which your post indicates, as if the man himself is separate from what he does. That strikes me as a kind of intellectual schizophrenia.

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Again, our Lord seems to indicate that the ontology of the person gives the resultant lifestyle. Jesus fails to give creedence to the imagio Deo in each and every man, possibly because it may be possible that this image can be erased by our choices:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Does this mean, that upon God "giving them up", the image of God is erased in them and they are given over completely to their lusts? It would seem so since the image of God, as I have understood it from studies, is the ability we have to love and to choose to do right (deeds of love) over doing wrong. These men are "given over" so that they can no longer choose to do right. Where then is the image of God in this?

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

St. Paul says that such are "worthy of DEATH". WHEW!!!!! Did this perhaps sneak its way into the inspired record of Scripture, for it certain is against the grain of current Catholic thought regarding every man as worthy of mercy, no matter how heinous their crime against others.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Jesus also states that those who persue evil shall be recipients of judgement.

Each of those people is made in the image and likeness of God.

If indeed the likeness of God involves the ability to both love and choose from one's free will to exercise love (good deeds) over selfishness (doing of evil) then tell me WHERE the image of God is in the serial rapist who has violated numerous women and young girls and would do so again if freed. He is a slave to his disordered passions, having choosen evil over good. As such, when we as humans choose to follow evil, we make a covenant with the evil one and become "sons of the devil" by chosing the evil one as our father (covenantal head) instead of the true Father in Heaven. How does such NOT cry out to God for justice?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Yeeeeeeowww!! What happened to "everyone is made in the image of God?"

We are called to help them to make the image and likeness so clear that they, too, reflect the Son.

Problem. Scripture just quoted in Romans 1 says that God gives over some to their disordered passions that they become slaves to those passions and are ripe for judgement and eternal fire. Explain the discordance here between what you say and Scripture.

Your post not only did not do that, but you called for their excommunication. In fact, you claimed that if you were a priest you would excommunicate them. That would be a serious error on your part for they have done nothing that would warrant excommunication, and the days when a priest, deacon or sub-deacon could excommunicate are long gone

Then I would go to the bishop and ask for excommunication. The point is that the Latin rite documents call it a "grave sin" (mortal) to vote for an abortionist politician. I am doing this man a favor by challenging him, even if it is with a certain amount of tactlessness. The next Eucharist he partakes of will be "unworthy partaking" and to the damage of his soul.

Further, excommunication is an earthly picture of the heavenly reality. We do not live in a vacumn. Our actions on earth have distinct ramifications in Heaven. This is why we have the Sacrament of Pennance. When the priest absolves me, the heavenly King absolves me also. In like manner, the man who has committed mortal sin is already severed from grace, having broken the covenant of the Father which he bounc himself to by baptism. In such a case, excommunication shows the sinner an earthly picture of what will be his eternal destiny except he repent. By not excommunicating rebellious members of the Body of Christ, a false picture is given of a God Who really doesn't judge anyone's actions. You know, sort of "I'm okay, you're okay". That is NOT a picture of what we refer to as the "fearful and awesome day of judgement" in our Liturgy, is it?

Ontologically, what is a man? At birth, what is he? At 5? 15? 25? 75? Does his ontology change with the choices which he makes for either good or evil. Romans seems to indicate there is some change if you accept that at birth man is ontologically the imagio Deo, but in a very neutral and unformed state, subject to all the things which are going to shape and bend him in the life he is about to set out upon.

I would be interested in seeing your answers to this as this question has quite intrigued and perplexed me. I reject the Calvinist position which I formerly held which states that ontologically, every man at birth is a son of the devil. Error, and a bad one. But I am wrestling with the opposite thought, the Catholic one, which also seems to be in error, that all men are by nature the image of God. As I said, Romans seems to disclaim this idea.

Thank you for your response.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Ed,

What we are is reflected clearly in what we do and say. If we are of Christ then what we do and say will reflect Christ. We are not capable of being two different things unless there is something fundamentally wrong with us (bi-polar, schizophrenic, etc.).

Your posts teem with anger because you have not yet come to grips with Christ in your life. I passed over your assertion that "Jews and Muslims...hate...Christ" -- but that is another example of your failure to see Christ in those people.

Your anger comes from within. You are reflecting your own inner struggle and projecting it on others.

I believe you have a desire to follow Christ, but you have not yet let go of everything so that Jesus can take over. You are like those who wanted to bury their parents before they followed Jesus. Of course, they were young and their parents hadn't died yet!

The world is not perfect, but it's not our job to fix it! We are to reflect Christ -- and he was killed by the very people he came to save.

Think about it!

Edward, deacon and sinner

Brother Ed,

I have some thoughts for you.

You are correct - Christianity is not against the death penalty per se.

I have wondered why John Paul II (a man I greatly admire and love. Will more then likely cry when he passes) would stand so firm against the death penalty. I figure he could actually believe it is wrong totally. Or he, being a great political chest player, is willing to say lets have mercy on the most violent felons, so as to sway in those who are pro-abortion into the pro-life movement. Some often see a contradiction between pro-death penalty and pro-life.

One can never go wrong with mercy.

Abortion - if you believe it wrong, but vote for it's legalization - is selling out. Just as the rapist raped. The person that votes for abortion even though he believes it to be the murder of human life, has sold out in this one instance, for something else that will pleasure him.

But abortion is not like going up and shooting someone in the head. Most people have not built any relationship to the unborn, so they do not easily connect to it's humanity. They are told it is a moral right over and over again in the media.

One of the problems I have with the death penalty is that some innocent people will die. Would you be willing to volunter for lethal injection next time a scapegoat is needed to self validate the need for the death penalty?

Justin

FrDeaconEd,

You contradict yourself here (in the above).

And I suppose you count yourself amongst the "of Christ"? You always say and do what is right huh? What about what you think - Christ agrees with your thoughts and opinions huh? What about the Pope that kept that kidnaped Jewish boy and raised him as his own that the Vatican wanted to canonize? Of Christ too huh? If not then what does that say of the Papacy and your theory of do and say the right things = Christianity? Peter denied Christ and only one of them showed up at His death. Yet the Christian Church considers them as Apostolic fathers of Christianity.

Don't worry about answering it. I don't assume you would anyways.

Justin

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Dear Ed,

I don't think Catholic thought is that all men are worthy of mercy. We spend a lot of the Divine Liturgy pleading "Lord, have mercy" many times over.

The Latin Mass prays "Lord, look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church." and also "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed." We are UNWORTHY, but Jesus wants to save us from ourselves. He will, IF we want Him to.

Our confessions must be sincere, for the Priest's absolution to have any lasting effect. If we return to our sin, or let our bad habits run our lives, the consequence is death. But death in the Lord's time, not to be assigned by some other sinner.

Most Muslims and Jews don't hate Christ. Most don't know Him at all. Many have no knowledge of the real Christ, only experiences with "Christians" who consign them to hell before trying to show them what living "in Christ" really means. Many probably fear Him, although they won't admit it.

There are, of course, "Jews" and "Muslims" as well as "Christians" who do not care to study the meaning of their belief systems, but only spout the politicized blasphemy that asserts that it (their personal belief) is "the only way, the true way, etc."

Some of these have tried to "Polonize", "Latinize", "Russify", "Orthodoxify", or "Ukrainianize" other people's parts of the Church.

Ultimately, Christianity, to follow Jesus' plan, must allow each sinner to repent, to confess, to mean it or not. The Lord will judge each of us in His time and in His way. We must love others to be saved, not to save them. They must turn toward Jesus, not away from Him, to be saved.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

What we are is reflected clearly in what we do and say. If we are of Christ then what we do and say will reflect Christ. We are not capable of being two different things unless there is something fundamentally wrong with us (bi-polar, schizophrenic, etc.)

That is kind of the direction I was heading. Now let me parse this a little finer. Are you saying that there is a difference between being "of Christ" as a Christian is (in varying degrees) and simply having Jesus inside as you indicate below regarding Jews and Muslims.

I guess this is where my understanding breaks down and takes a distinctly Protestant set (remember, 25 years of condemning everyone who is not Christian to hell -- that ain't easily dumped overnight, but I am trying). I am from rites which consider only Christians as those who "have Christ", so the idea that Jesus resides in a non-baptized Jew, Muslim, or even atheist, is like the Windows "blue screen of death" in my mind when I think on it. Yet I am not the sum and total of truth in my thoughts on this. When I came into the Faith, I made a decision that I would accept all that it teaches doctrinally because the "depositum fidei" was given to the apostles, and my name......shucks, I just couldn't find it among them!!

So....this is a teaching of the Church. I am bound to accept it. I have seen this thought expressed in many writings of many people. But I really do not understand it.

Your posts teem with anger because you have not yet come to grips with Christ in your life.

You've noticed, eh? So what do I do about it? I will not argue that I seem to be deeply tapping a core of anger in the last year that I was unaware I even had. Perhaps you could help me understand what is happening, at least a little bit.

I passed over your assertion that "Jews and Muslims...hate...Christ" -- but that is another example of your failure to see Christ in those people.

This is the statement that I simply do not comprehend. Perhaps I painted with much to broad a verbal brush. I am referring to the way that these people resist Christ, persecute his missionaries, and generally want nothing to do with the Gospel. If Jesus is in them, how is He in them? Could you please explain this to me? I see other poor sinners, other human beings who have fallen prey to the destruction of sin and its lie in our lives, but I also see people who CHOOSE to hate the Lord you say is in their lives.

And what of those who have been baptized into the Faith and have decided to oppose and rebel against what the Church teaches. My thought is that they are in the kingdom because of their baptism, but because of their willful disobedience, they are like the Prodigal Son who left and went very far from his father's house. And like the Prodigal, if they die outside of the place where the father is (the state of grace), how can they recieve the inheritance, which is eternal life?

Your anger comes from within. You are reflecting your own inner struggle and projecting it on others.

This is quite possibly true. How do I find out what I am struggling with?

I believe you have a desire to follow Christ, but you have not yet let go of everything so that Jesus can take over.

I think there is wisdom in these words. I am going to spend some time pondering them this week. I will also be talking with my spiritual director about what has been said here.

The world is not perfect, but it's not our job to fix it! We are to reflect Christ -- and he was killed by the very people he came to save.

Good subject for an eschatology thread. Postmillenial thought would say that it is indeed our job to both fix the world and to extend the rule of Christ to every corner of that world of which He is rightfully King and Lord.

Thank you for well thought out and reasoned answers.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed -- still the angry X Prot

Justin,

Well, you'd have been wrong.

I'm a sinner so not everything I think or do is of Christ. Yet I'm also a sinner who struggles to follow Jesus so I hope and pray that most of what I do, say and think is what Jesus would do, say and think.

And, yes, the Church Fathers were also sinners. The fact that they are Church Fathers says there is hope that all of us can find salvation.

Edward, deacon and sinner