www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX BODIES MAY MERGE, DEFY MOSCOW

>>>So, if I understand Brendan's point, there is no possibility of a reunion of the Orthodox and Catholic churches because
any reunion will be regarded by the right-wing as a sell-out to uniatism. And the unilateral actions of any individual
church will be condemned because it didn't involve the whole of Orthodoxy, which in itself seems like an impossibility
because there's no emperor to call a council.<<<

You just don't understand the Orthodox perspective, Dr. John: "The absence of communion is the greatest obstacle to our being in communion". Or, conversely, "If only we were in communion with you, there would be no problem with our being in communion". There's a sort of logic to it, but on the whole, not very helpful.

Allow me to translate this tautology.

"All you Catholics can cram it."

I'm glad that Holy Father had so far ignored this...

--NDHoosier

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!!!
GLORY FOREVER!!!

Dear Friends,


The largest Byzantine Battallion in history showed up in Lviv this week. Maybe we compromise and put the Patriarchate at St. George's? Or cover the Hippodrome with the largest onion dome ever?

Sadly, given that most hierarchs seem more concerned with the perks of their respective Patriarchates or national Churches, we may never see a Council to look into issues of unity. After all, it has been more than a thousand years since the last Council.

Getting together may require courageous Bishops and Metropolitans to do what was done at Brest or Uzhorod. Or individuals and small groups of faithful may have to seek communion in another community. In short, Unia may be the only way toward Unity in the face of political heirarchs, despite the formal denials of such things, such as Balamund. Sadly, this is how I see the reality of the Church today.

I would much rather see a Council called, as a starting point, to consider the matter of the canonicity and structure of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches,
and perhaps to meet every five years or so, working on one or two issues at a time, until greater unity can be achieved.

Of course, someone needs to call a Council, so first we need an Emperor. I suggest that the monarchists on the board meet and elect an Emperor, much as the Polish nobility elected their King.

Not being a monarchist, I have no vote in such considerations. But your duty is clear: elect an Emperor or accept perpetual Unia!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Actually, it is a matter of putting the cart before the horse and an unanswered question of: "What's in the cart?"


Until issues such as: the nature of the papacy; what constitutes the "catholic church"; filioque; church divorce and remarriage; birth control/contraception; and other doctrinal differences are seriously discussed and debated, communion is impossible for the Orthodox to even consider.

Prudence and common sense certainly do not make the Orthodox anti-Catholic or obstructionist, but only loyal to their tradition.


B.




[This message has been edited by bciulllp4userscommunity (edited 06-29-2001).]

Permissiveness on contraception has now been elevated to Orthodox doctrine? God help us!

What's next? Reviving the azymes controversy?

Thanks but no thanks...

Yes, Rich, I see your point. But might I point out that our Byzantine/Constantinopolitan tradition is rather to focus on the pastoral needs of the individual baptized Christian (and his/her pastor) than upon generally applied canonical precepts.

I'm in no way a proponent of abortion -- it's murder of a child -- but in terms of abstinence or condom use, I think that this is best settled in the personal forum. While the ecclesiastical structures have scoped out a perspective, it seems to me that the salvation of the individual Christian is best worked out with the advice of his/her pastor or bishop. I am very afraid that if we go to the "Law", we'll neglect the needs of the individual soul and in the process relegate the individual's soul to the processes of the legalistic precepts. And I'm not quite sure that this is in harmony with what our Lord did to those whom He met.

Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal or an ecumenical syncretist, but I think that the pastoral approach is both the best approach and also the most legitimate way to deal with our brethren.

May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Blessings!

I can't think of a gentler way to express this idea, so I'll just disclaim it as hyperbolic (but not by much)...

"Which of the Ten Commandments do you suggest we drop?"

--NDHoosier

[This message has been edited by NDHoosier (edited 06-30-2001).]

>>>Allow me to translate this tautology.

"All you Catholics can cram it."<<<

No, that's far too simple. The real issue is whether the Orthodox actually believe that there can be a Christian orthodoxy that is not exclusively Byzantine. The response of many Orthodox jurisdictions to the Western Rite Vicariate is not a good sign. Neither is the slow pace of relations between Orthodoxy and the Non-Chalcedonian Churches. Despite signing a joint Christological statement with them, they seem unable to bring themselve to actually extend respect and recognition to the theological expressions of those Churches, let alone go the final mile to opening communion. In the minds of far too many Orthodox Christians, Orthodoxy is byzantism, plain and simple.

I'm not suggesting that we drop any of the Ten Commandments. But somewhere I remember reading that Christ fulfilled the Law. And He gave us the two new commandments: Love God, with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind and your whole strength. And the second commandment is like unto it: you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself, for this is the summation of the Law and the prophets.

If we truly love God and our neighbor, we won't kill, we won't steal, we won't bear false witness. We'll love God and neighbor and our behavior will flow from that, not laws.

Blessings!

<<The real issue is whether the Orthodox actually believe that there can be a Christian orthodoxy that is not exclusively Byzantine. >>

That's exactly right and that is why when I converted from protestantism I did not become "Eastern Orthodox." Were all liturgies before that by St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil invalid because they weren't said correctly for you? Was the Christian Church founded by St. Constantine? Were there Christians before the Byzantine Empire? Is Christianity founded only on the Byzantine Empire?

For bciulllp4userscommunity

NEWS FLASH! Byzantine Empire Overrun by Turks. On 29 May 1453 Constantinople fell to the Turks.

NEWS FLASH! Tsar Nicholas II and family murdered July, 1918.

Sorry guys, but there were Christians before the Byzantine Empire and there are Christians who have never met a Byzantine Christian and never used the same Liturgy as you use.

To summarize, the Tsar is dead, the Byzantine Empire is destroyed, and there were, are, and will be Christians who do not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. You want to build a wall and pretend you've got some special revelation from God and nobody else is a Christian? You want to pretend Christ revealed that God uses the calendar of a Roman pagan? Go ahead. I know a lot of Baptists who think that they have the only valid baptism around.

You are, of course, welcome to join my church instead.

Do many Orthodox Christians really believe this?!

If Orthodoxy is simply Byzantinism, then you'll have to forgive me, but they can keep their precious Orthodoxy; I'll keep my Three Holy and Ecumenical Councils, the Syrian Liturgy of Mar Yaqub, the true Patriarchs of Antioch, the Syrian Fathers, and our God loving people, who (as far as my experience has gone) want communion with the other Orthodox, and yes, even with the Catholics.

Sorry, but this Orthodox = Byzantine concept really annoys me...forgive me if I've offended you, the reader.

Can't we all just get along?

For bciulllp4userscommunity

NEWS FLASH! Byzantine Empire Overrun by Turks. On 29 May 1453 Constantinople fell to the Turks.

NEWS FLASH! Tsar Nicholas II and family murdered July, 1918.

Wow! Thanks for the info! All of us were wondering why noone answers our e-mail! Now we know.

Does that mean our stock in Imperial Roman Baklava, Inc., is worthless?

We are not as insular (although there is much room for improvement) as you might think. Check our calendar. We honor many Latin saints, as well as Syriac, etc.

What does the fall of Constantinople and the death of St.Nicholas, Imperial Martyr of Holy Russia, have to do with my daily walk in Christ as an Orthodox Christian or deserting Orthodoxy for another churh, as you suggest? I have no desire to desert the faith I was raised in anymore than you have a desire to desert the faith you converted to.

I would never ask you to desert your church for mine.

B, et al.

>>>Do many Orthodox Christians really believe this?!<<<

Consider the progress of the dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the pre-Chalcedonian Churches, and the perpetual raising of obstacles even after arriving at fundamental agreement. Consider the insistance on the acceptance of Chalcedon and subsequent councils as a precondition for communion, despite the recognition that Cyrillian or Antiochian is indeed fully orthodox and consistent with Chalcedonian and neo-Chalcedonian Christology.

>>>If Orthodoxy is simply Byzantinism, then you'll have to forgive me, but they can keep their precious Orthodoxy; I'll
keep my Three Holy and Ecumenical Councils, the Syrian Liturgy of Mar Yaqub, the true Patriarchs of Antioch, the
Syrian Fathers, and our God loving people, who (as far as my experience has gone) want communion with the other
Orthodox, and yes, even with the Catholics. <<<

The best thing you can do is to continue to press Orthodox Christians to check their own assumptions and clarify their thinking in regard to the legitimacy of non-Byzantine forms of theology, spirituality, and doctrinal expression.

Okay, okay. I've been a tad harsh. I've had a really bad week and I shouldn't have been so terse.

I guess I should have taken the tone of Stuart.

Since I made the assumption I will simply ask. Does Eastern Orthodoxy = Byzantism only, or are Eastern Orthodox churches willing to be in communion with any church that does not use its specific liturgy? Do the Eastern Orthodox faithful believe that all other liturgies are invalid? Would the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs allow others in communion with them that use a different liturgy?

I should have asked first before assuming.

Sorry about the tone.

Man, I must not be doing well.

Strike any in "any church" to the word "a".

I didn't see the movie, but how did Stella get her groove back? I need to get mine back too.