www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Episcopalian "Clown Eucharist"

To Stephanos,

I did notice the parallel with the Byzantine Liturgy of a Gospel procession in the midst of the people. I think if he had just processed in and around (something I have seen done in another RC church) without going "around and around" it would have been far more meaningful.

To Pro Catholico,

Your chastisement of the Byzantines who are critical of the "Gospel Twirling" in the video is what is truly unwarranted.

The liturgical nonsense that has been thrusted upon innocent RC parishoners for a few generations now has nothing to do with the great Latin tradition. Do not confuse "tridentine" with traditional, BTW. If you have ever seen the Mass of Paul VI done in Rome or on EWTN, it is NOT Tridentine. Rather, it is the "New Mass" which draws on the full and beautiful liturgical traditions of the West.

If you have a concern for the unity of East and West, you will hope (and work towards, possibly turning some of your criticism towards the "liturgical experts" who have made the experience of worship in many RC parishes a wasteland) that the worship of the West more closely resembles an EWTN Mass, or what Pope Benedict wrote about extensively in "The Spirit of the Liturgy". I might point out that Frank Schaeffer might well have joined the ranks of the Catholic Church had he experienced the full beauty of the West. Instead he got the "deconstructed" RC Mass. He is now a very vocal and active member of the Greek Orthodox Church. Why? Because he was looking for the Apostolic faith, and the worship he witnessed did not reflect the inner beaty and mystery of what was actually occurring. My point? How appealing does union with the CC look when the average service at some RC parishes looks like a church in an identity crisis?

As to your point about "participation", I agree. At a bare minimum, it is a good thing that people are in attendance at Sunday Mass. But beautiful worship does not preclude either participation or a dynamic common life. If anything, one should feed into the other. (Great examples of this include Annunciation BCC parish in Homer Glenn, IL and Holy Transfiguration Melkite in McClean, VA.)

One additional point -

I find your comments re: "mean spiritedness" extremely hypocritical. What are we to think of your references to any and all Episcopalian or Anglican services as "clown masses"? This is truly beyond the pale. There are many Episcopalian and Anglican clergy and faithful that have a greater sense of Catholicity in their left pinky than some RC's that I have met. (The traditional communions here in the states and the Anglican churches of Africa come to mind.) And their worship is more reflective of a deep faith as well. Whatever the issues around Holy Orders, they can be quickly resolved. I think your advocacy for "tolerance" from others is questionable, given the nature of your own comments. I believe you owe our traditional Episcopalians on this forum (one of whom is a priest) an apology.

Gordon

Gordon,

Being perfectly honest with you and the other members of this Forum, I in no way, whatsoever, believe that my comments directed at my Byzantine brethren were unwarranted.

Granted, there have been abuses made within the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican II. Some have been cited, including "clown masses" and "cookies" used as Hosts. Fortunately for us, most of these gross mistreatments of the liturgy are a thing of the past.

My post or rather my point, was made directly in reference to the video clip and the subsequent commentary. I saw nothing wrong with this procession. It was not a "liturgical nonsense" and this worship style is not akin to a "wasteland"-as you so bluntly put it. It was statements like those which I spoke out against.

Whether it is the mass of Paul VI, the tridentine mass, the charasmatic mass, or the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, to me they are all the same, in the sense that the Sacrifice is being offered and Christ is truly present.

Please recognize that in the Roman Church we have different ways in which we worship together when we are in our own community. The Pope is fully aware of this.

In fact, you must well know that when our beloved Pope John Paul II used to travel the world, he attended masses that probably would have inflammed you because of what you percieved as liturgical abuses. Yet, I know of not a single incident of a mass where he personally attended that he criticized.

As for Mr. Schaeffer, I'm glad he joined the Greek church, because ultimately that's where God wanted him I am sure and that's where he felt at home most likely. I really do not care that he may not have liked a Roman Catholic mass which you termed "deconstructed", that is his opinion and IMHO-his misfortune.

And to call me a hypocrite (because calling my comments hypocritical basically implies that) I feel was out of line. But then again that is your opinion of me.

I never called Anglican masses, in general, "clown masses". I made the comment in reference to Episopalian (i.e. ECUSA) services. And FYI, I am perhaps the biggest advocate here to the corporate reunion of Traditional Anglicans to Rome. Many can attest to that! I consider the Traditonal Anglicans to be commendable Christians and their orders will be valid I am sure. Yet I do not consider the orders of an Episcopalian priestess or anyone who staunchly supports modern-day ECUSA to be on equal par with the Traditonal Anglicans. There is a huge difference!

Also, I was not the only one who made such a comment in that regard so you might as well call out the other person who made such a comment, rather than to single me out.

Finally, I will not offer an apology. If you scroll up and read the last lines of my previous post you will see I offered one already to anyone I might have offended. So I needent repaeat something which I already made clear myself.

Gordon, this is not the first time me and you have come at odds over a post. It is evident we have differing views on a range of issues. I hope you pray for me and I will pray for you. At the very least we should one day be able to have some mutual understanding.

I do not hope and will in fact myself, not go back and forth on an arguement such as this, on this post. But if you feel the need to tell me something, I ask you to send such a message to me privately through a PM on this Forum.

ProCatholico

Pro Catholico,

So you publicly chastise me and then request a PM in response?

I think not.

I think your sensibilities around worship and what is fitting is perfectly suited to the present state of worship in many RC settings. I cannot go so far as to say that I am "happy" for this, as I feel that the situation in many Latin parishes is abysmal and in need of restoration. Clown Masses and cookie "hosts" exist on the far end of the continuum and, thankfully, are rare if they exist anywhere at all. I am happy at least that you recognize that such activities are not an acceptable form of worship. It is a start...

You are correct - in all of the different types of liturgies that are celebrated, the Paschal Mystery is renewed and Christ is truly present (at least when the minimal canonical standards are followed). But I disagree with you that every manifestation of worship so long as it retains its core validity is therefore equally praiseworthy and reflective of authentic Christian worship. I am sure that Pope Benedict is aware of the "diversity of expression" that exists among the various Latin parishes, but that does not mean that he agrees with all of its elements. In fact, if you actually read his "The Spirit of the Liturgy," you'll discover an advocacy for something more in keeping with the tradition of the Eastern churches, while retaining a fully Western form and spirit. He is also quite critical of the "horizontalization" of worship where the focus on community surplants the focus on the Mystery. The community is not and should not be the object of worship.

Liturgies that would "inflame" me? You make too many judgements about me personally. I am no reactionary traditionalist, but I am orthodox.
I also recognize the position that Pope John Paul II was in when hosted by another diocese. I'm sure that out of respect for his brother bishop and for the people present, he restrained any public comment. (Privately? Who knows...) All you needed to do, though, was attend a liturgy in Rome or in Assisi to see how the Mass was to be celebrated under his shepherding.

I still stand by my statement that your comments were hypocritical. (I refrained from calling you a "hypocrite", since I do not know you personally and did not want to judge your character as a person.) Try as you might to backpedal, your statement is clear for all to see: you are referring to both priests and "priestesses" and all Episcopalian worship. If that was not your intention, then make an honest retraction. I stand by my statement that your comment was uncharitable and out-of-step with your call for tolerance and an end to "mean-spiritness". Your apology in your earlier statement, no doubt intended to shield yourself from any deserved criticism, does not somehow excuse it.

Yes, we have had our differences and will continue to do so. Our worldviews are very different. But if you cannot handle a forthright critique of your postings when you offer criticism, I would recommend reading, but not posting. Perhaps you think that we should take a posture of humble acceptance when you offer an unjust critique. I would beg to differ.

I will, however, keep you in my humble prayers today.

Pray for me a sinner,

Gordo

Dear, in Christ,

I think everything helpful that can be said about the topic title has been said, and so, with your indulgence and permission, I shall close this thread.

Please feel free to begin another thread with another title, if anyone wants to speak more to this or any other topic.

Even if we do not agree with the liturgical practice of another Church or tradition (legitimate or otherwise), it is the convention of this place that we still always speak respectfully of other Churches and traditions.

Needless to say, it is best to attribute the best motives to every poster, and state our own thoughts and opinions on a topic, avoiding judgements about other persons, wherever possible.

Thank you for allowing me to close this thread.

the unworthy,

Elias