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I made the point that one cannot expect someone to know the canons of a church they do not belong to. You responded
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But I as an RC know that I may not receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion in ... a Protestant ... Church
Here you prove my point, as in several Protestant bodies that is not true. So if you misunderstand the canons of bodies you do not belong to, how can the rest of the world be expected to as well?

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I'm not exactly sure where this thread is going, but it appears that the original intent was, or at least the first question was asked, regarding the practice of the Byzantine Catholic Churches.

However, it is unfortunate that certain remarks were made regarding the what some have termed "quizzing the communicant" in the Orthodox Churches. Let us set the record straight.

In the Orthodox faith, regardless of what someone may have "observed" or "heard" or even "seen", eucharistic communion is reserved only for those who have joined themselves to the Orthodox faith through baptism and/or chrismatiobn, who attend an Orthodox Church, and who actively practice the Orthodox faith. There is no playing with words here. By Orthodox, I do not mean those who say that they are of "one mind" with the Orthodox faith or "accept" the Orthdoox faith, yet chose to be united to other Churches who are not Orthodox. I am speaking of what we all know to be the Orthodox Church.

Knowing that - there is a eucharistic discipline within the Orthodox faith. Communion is not an "open" affair. And even "membership" within the Church is not the only criteria for receiving communion (however, its the most essential creiterion). There are Orthodox Christians who may be under a ban, or have wrongly removed themselves from eucharistic communion, or have not received confession after being absent from communion for an extended period, or may have committed a grave sin. All of these situations imply that eucharistic communion is not permitted for those particular people.

Additionally, (obviously) those who are not of the Orthodox faith (see above), no matter how pious or Christian or well-intentioned they may be, are not permitted to receive the eucharist in an Orthodox Church. I do know that it happens, but it certainly is not a wide-spread occurrence. In fact, it is quite rare. There may also be certain (very few) geographical areas in the world where both Orthodox and Eastern-Rite Catholics reside and the Eastern-Rite Catholics seem to recieve in an Orthodox Church with much more freedom, however, this is clearly not the norm, and nothing should be implied regarding the normal practice of the Orthodox Church in noting these exceptions.

That being said, as a parish priest in America, where the congregatations are relatively small (in comparison to say, Russia, where 3,000 people at a liturgy is commonplace, and the overwhleming majority of people are Orthodox) I will tell you that, due to the plethora of heterodox religious experessions, the large number of seekers and inaquirers to Orthodoxy, as well as a few people who are not Orthodox but feel it is their "right" to receive in an Orthodox Church, the great majority, not all, but the great majority of Orthodox priests in America WILL ask you who you are and if you are Orthodox, if they do not recognize you. If they don't, then they don't.

Priests are given a charge when they are ordained. They are given the Lamb and told to "guard it." Here's what the bishop said to me when I was ordained and he handed me the Lamb: "Receive this pledge, and preserve it whole and unharmed until your last breath, becuase you will be held to an accounting therefore at the second and awesome coming of our great Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The idea of asking someone if they are Orthodox at the chalice may sound to someone to be rude or crude or unloving or intolerant or whatever... but I assure you that sometimes, it is necessary. I do ask, if I do not recognize someone, (and they have not had the wherewithall to announce their presence beforehand and make their intention to receive known, beucase this, in fact, is the norm). It doesn't mean that I'm mean or nasty or unwelcoming. I'm actually a very nice person. biggrin However, I am also reminded of the Lord's saying about giving holy things to those who are not able to receive them (Mt 7:6) and of my own pledge to my bishop before God Himself to be held accountable for that same Lamb.

Since it is my new policy to quote some article or source which will confirm or support what I've said (in otherwise dubious circumstances) using some well-known authoritative source or writer, here's an article by Fr. Thomas Hopko, former dean of St. Vladimir's Seminary, professor of dogmatic theology, and author of numerous books on Orthodoxy regarding Eucharistic Discipline:

http://www.svots.edu/Events/Orthodox-Education-Day/Articles/2000-Fr-Thomas-Hopko.html

Eucharistic Discipline in the Orthodox Church

People of whatever convictions -- theistic or atheistic, Christian or non-Christian -- who behave in an orderly and respectful manner may attend liturgical services in an Orthodox church, and participate, as possible, in the prayers and rituals (such as singing psalms and hymns, and venerating icons and relics). But only members of the Orthodox Church who practice a specific spiritual discipline may participate in the Church�s sacraments and receive holy communion at the Orthodox divine liturgy. The essential elements of eucharistic discipline in the Orthodox Church may be simply stated in five points.

Participation in Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church requires first of all that a person be a baptized, chrismated member of the Orthodox Church who fully accepts the conditions and demands of his or her baptism and chrismation. Eucharistic discipline in the Orthodox Church demands that communicants in the eucharistic sacrifice understand themselves at all times and in all circumstances as having died and risen with Christ, as sealed by the Holy Spirit, and as belonging to God as His bonded-servants and free-born sons in Jesus.

Baptism and chrismation, and so, participation in holy communion, require a person to believe in the Word of God, the Gospel of Christ, and the Christian Faith summarized in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed, as these are proclaimed and interpreted in the Orthodox Church. Members of the Orthodox Church who question biblical or churchly doctrines may participate in holy communion if they are praying and working to come to an enlightened understanding of the Faith under the guidance of their pastors and teachers. But those who have been baptized and chrismated in the Orthodox Church who publicly express doubt and disbelief about the faith as confessed and lived in the Orthodox Church, or secretly harbor such doubt and disbelief, may not partake of holy communion at an Orthodox divine liturgy.

Confessing the Christian faith as understood and practiced in the Orthodox Church is to identify fully with Orthodox Church history and tradition, and to take full responsibility for it. It is to accept and defend the dogmas and canons of the councils accepted by the Orthodox Churches, to worship according to Orthodox liturgical rites, to venerate those who are glorified as Orthodox saints, and to struggle to practice the ethical and moral teachings of Christ and his apostles as recorded in the holy scriptures and elaborated in Orthodox Church tradition. Because participation in the holy Eucharist is not only a sacred communion with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit, but also a holy communion with Orthodox believers of all times and places, responsibility for the whole of Orthodox Church history and tradition is an absolute condition for partaking in the holy communion of Christ�s body and blood at the Church�s divine liturgy.

Identifying fully with Orthodox Christian teaching and practice requires a communicant in the Orthodox Church to strive to put the Church�s biblical, evangelical and apostolic teachings into practice in their everyday lives. No one can believe and do everything perfectly. Eucharistic discipline, however, demands that a communicant struggles to do so, admitting when he or she fails, and repenting without self-justification over one�s failures and sins. This means, concretely, that eucharistic discipline requires a communicant to study God�s Word in scripture, to pray and fast and give alms as one can, to attend church services as regularly as possible, and to live according to God�s commandments in all aspects of one�s life and work, regularly giving an account of one�s behavior to one�s pastor and spiritual guide, repenting of one�s sins, and struggling by God�s grace to change and improve. Persons rejecting such a disciplined life may not partake of Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church.

Eucharistic discipline in the Orthodox Church finally requires that a communicant be in constant repentance, realizing that he or she is never worthy of receiving holy communion, and knowing that the heartfelt confession of one�s unworthiness is an absolute condition for partaking in a worthy manner. The essential expression of one�s unworthiness to receive Christ�s body and blood in Holy Communion, with the admission of one�s sins, is the forgiveness of others. Eucharistic discipline demands that communicants of Christ�s body and blood be at peace with everyone as far as they can be, even when others are unwilling to forgive and be reconciled. At least within themselves, partakers of Holy Communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy must be in a union of love with all people, including their worst enemies.
Acceptance of one�s baptism and chrismation in the Church, responsibility for the Church�s faith and life, the struggle to put the faith fully into practice, accountability for one�s personal belief and behavior, constant and continual repentance, and peace with all people in the union of love commanded and given by God in Christ and the Holy Spirit -- these are the requirements for participation in holy communion in the Orthodox Church. They are, ultimately and essentially, what Holy Communion itself is all about.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church [stnicholas-oca.org]
McKees Rocks, PA

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Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Sorry Axios and Tony,

But I as an RC [b] know
that I may not receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion in either a Protestant or Orthodox Church. My friends in the States tell me that in their RC Pew Books it is stated that non-catholics may not Receive the Sacrament.

Here when it is known that non-catholics may be present our priests will remind the congregation of this and say that should they wish they may go forward to receive a Blessing from the Priest.

I can't answer for Mr Clinton, but Mr Blair , married to an RC , and whose children are educated in RC Schools should know that.

I can however say that during my time in Geneva , when I was a Methodist , I was told that as a communicating member of my own Church [ Methodist] and as there was no other English speaking Church there I was permitted whilst in Switzerland to receive Communion in the Anglican Church.

However I, as an EEM, also know that I am not to stop and question any stranger who approaches me during the time of Administration of Communion.

When in Lourdes - since there I attend Divine Liturgy smile , I am careful to introduce myself beforehand and explain that I am Latin but do wish to Receive there -- and I am now greeted most kindly on my visits . OK they possibly think I am an oddball - but I am welcomed there and I feel at home.

Anhelyna[/b]
Dear Anhelyna,

I am not sure why you are addressing me or what you are actually addressing me about. Axios apparently spoke for me without my permission and while silence is consent I am not remaining silent. Please allow me to speak for myself.

Many people on this forum regularly attend or visit RC parishes in the USA. They can attest to what is in the "Missalette." The front or back inside cover contains the various potential categories of non-Catholics who may find themselves in a Catholic parish and the rules that govern them.

Christians of Churches that Rome deems have "valid sacraments" most surely are allowed to receive in RC parishes under certain conditions (one being that the discipline of their Church allows it or their hishop allows it). That means members the EO, OO, Assyrian Church of the East, Polish National Catholic and Old Catholic communions.

I was Catholic for about 18 years (I would have to do it on paper to get it right). I had a clue about where I could receive communion and who could receive in a Catholic Church.

Tony

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Originally posted by Axios:
I made the point that one cannot expect someone to know the canons of a church they do not belong to. You responded
Quote
But I as an RC know that I may not receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion in ... a Protestant ... Church
Here you prove my point, as in several Protestant bodies that is not true. So if you misunderstand the canons of bodies you do not belong to, how can the rest of the world be expected to as well?
Axios
I am sorry if my carelessness in terminology has made you think I do not understand my Church's teaching.

What I should of course, have said was that I an RC know that I may not attend and partake in a service of communion at a Protestant Church. This is of course not because they would not allow it - but because my Church does not.

I trust this is now clear

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Yes, that's clearer, but I don't understand its relevance to the post it appeared to be in response to.

I would stand by my statement that 1) persons are not subject to canons of bodies they do not belong to, 2) one cannot hold persons morally accountable for having intellectual knowledge of the canons of churches they do not belong to; 3) it is the priest, not the communicant who has the duty to enforce this discipline.

Axios

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Hi:

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The Church authorities both when Clinton and Reagan before him received Communion were careful to point out that any violation of the law was by the priest, not the Presidents, as non-Catholics are not subject to canon law.
If validly Baptized by a Church or Ecclesial Community that is not the counterpart of any other Catholic Church Sui Iuris, a person is technically subject to Latin Canon Law.

Of course, we can safely assume that such persons will not be conversant in Canon Law, and therefore, the violations they might commit would hardly be imputed as guilt to them.

Having said so, there is a pastoral provision, especially for places where mixed Anglican-Catholic marriages are in considerable numbers, to allow the Anglican spouse to partake Holy Communion at the Catholic spouse's parish provided that the Anglican spouse subscribes to Catholic sacramental theology and is properly disposed to receive.

Mr. Blair may be receiving Holy Communion at his wife's church as a benefit of this pastoral provision, and not as a disobedience to Church law.

Shalom,
Memo.

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But Memo:

Weren't the Anglican sacraments declared invalid and devoid of grace by Pope Leo XIII, and their orders to be null and void?

If I am not mistaken Clinton's wife was not Catholic but belonged to the same baptist community when he worshiped but the case of Blair does suscribe to the pastoral provision you mentioned.

I wonder what would Leo XIII would think about this :p

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1. The question to if the Anglicans have valid orders and sacraments is a seperate and distinct question from if an individual Anglican shares in the Catholic Church's basic Eucharistic thelogy.

2. Senator Clinton has never been a regular attendee at her husband's parish. She is a Methodist and while President, he attended Foundry Methodist Church with her.

3. President Reagan attended National Presbyterian Church the four or five times he attended church in Washington while president.

Axios

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