www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Liturgical changes in the byzantine rite?

As a Byzantine Catholic, it seems to me that the Liturgy was perfected centuries ago in the East. Of course, I am a bit biased. I can't explain the tendency in the West to tamper with things sacred, but perhaps the intentions were/are good, if not the effects. I am old enough to remember the 60s when many of the liturgical changes took place. If I remember correctly, the mass of Vatican II was fine until Paul VI took it upon himself to fix things that were not broken. While Paul VI may have had many admirable qualities, I remember thinking at the time that he was about the world's worst person to tinker with the mass. He had little or no pastoral experience and I don't think he ever saw the logical consequences of any of his actions. All that is open to anyone's interpretation, of course. But it seemed to me that after Vatican II, the bishops abdicated their responsibilities for preserving the mass. So we were all subjected to the hippie element with guitars and whatever craziness they came up with in an effort to make the mass "relevant." I have often wondered if God is waiting for that generation to pass away like the Israelites in the desert. Again, who knows, and it is all open to speculation. I also don't enjoy saying that, because I am getting close to the ages of that generation. As a church musician, I often see these guys show up in their graying pony tails with their out-of-tune guitars slung over their shoulders - again to make the mass "relevant." I resist the urge to yell, "the 60s are over - it is you who are no longer relevant." Of course, I don't do it, but just think it instead. If these folks actually could make the mass "relevant," perhaps mass attendance would not have dropped the way it has over the years. But I do maintain that many or most all the problems with the Novus Ordo mass are caused by the bishops not doing their jobs. If they didn't allow all the craziness, it would disappear overnight.

Slava Isusu Christu!

It is as it is. The Roman Mass was revised by the authority of Pope Paul VI. Byzantine Catholics have their own liturgy and most Latins don't see a problem with theirs. So come on, guys... :rolleyes:

In Christ Jesus,

Robert

Live Journal:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rusyn/

I think the thing that often bothers me most, is that many of the Latins I know don't see any problems with much of anything. Not that the Byzantine Church has any lock on sanctity, since we can have the same problems. I have seen congregations where the people seem holy and something wonderful is going on during the mass. I have seen other groups where the people seem to believe everything and nothing and Fr. "Jim" is railing about the latest politically incorrect sin - nothing sacred or related to the welfare of the soul, to be sure. Of course I wonder if there is a relationship between the conduct of the mass and the behavior and attitudes of the people. Perhaps approaching the holy with reverence and awe, and conducting liturgy in a holy and majestic manner, does have an effect on the attitudes of the people. Now that's genuinely "relevant."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Every once in a while we get a posting making a comparison betwen the eastern churches and the western one, usually critical of the liturgical changes in the western one.

It simply isn't helpful to keep going over that.

Our culture has undergone a series of major shifts, probably starting with the easy availability of birth control plus legal abortion and continuing with commonplace divorce. We have a media that is habit forming. My generation, when we were young, had a tendency to see the church as an institution, not really part of the community but separate from the community, like a government branch. Perhaps some of you were fortunate enough not to have felt like that growing up.

So there are a whole host of reasons for the church, east and west, to lose participation from the general public.

We today find ourselves competing for the attention of a dwindling pool of committed Christians. We want to be authentic and relevant, but it will take a lot more than that to fill the pews. We need to convert our culture.

The liturgy everywhere will be more profound if the people have deeper faith at home and at work. They will carry that back into the parish, volunteer more, get involved and worship with deeper piety.

A more pius, devoted and committed parish will not put up with a crappy liturgy, east or west.

In Christ,
Michael

A more pius, devoted and committed parish will not put up with a crappy liturgy, east or west.

I have to agree with you there.

Charles

Thanks Diak, I will investigate these sources. I appreciate the help. I would really love to attend the Byzantine mass. I do love the Tridentine mass but I find more beauty in the Byzantine rite. I miss singing all the beautiful chants with the whole choir and congregation! (well, humming in basso profundo most of the time in harmony since I don't understand a lot of the words).

Thank you for the sources.

Andrew

Here is a interesting article concerning Liturgy changes:

Restore the Old Mass(Roman Liturgy) by Robert Moynihan.

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040602.html


james

Amen to this. So many keep talking as if the Novus Ordo mass is holy, and that it's just some who have misunderstood its directives and purpose. I maintain that it is fundamentally flawed and doubtfully valid. In fact I would maintain that it was exactly for that purpose that it was hoisted upon the Catholic faithful, just like the rest of the highjacking of Vatican II by a core of conspirators.

The Novus Ordo was never "commanded". The Latin words in fact were "volumus" or "we wish". "We wish that all parishes will use the New Order of the Mass...etc. etc." In the past, for example, for the promulgation of the Tridentine reforms of the Councel of Trent, Pope St. Pius V "ordered" the celebration of the Tridentine mass. In fact, that order "mandamus" was never withdrawn. So a priest NEVER has to ask permission to say the Tridentine mass...it is guaranteed in perpetuity and until that is rescinded, it is those that insist on the Novus Ordo who are in error.

The Novus Ordo mass is devoid of the sacred because it was drafted with the help of Protestant ministers (8 of them) and they took the emphasis away from a sacrifice (the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary) to a celebration. The priest, in loco Christi, became just the "presider" or "president" of the "assmebly". The prayers of the new mass were radically altered and many of the references to hell, reparation for sin, communion of saints, etc. were thrown out.

So don't wonder why there is so much confusion, apostasy, immorality, doubt, etc. in the faithful and hierarchy today. It all stems from Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. "By their fruits you shall know them"!!

Andrew,
If you can sing Basso Profundo you need to migrate to Chicago.

There's a spot in the choir here for you, don't worry about the words, we'll take care of that!

Michael

Andrezjek - Please. If you do not want to argue about the current Roman liturgy, then stop attacking it. Maybe you just assume that everybody here agrees with you, and there won't be any argument - that is not the case, and anyway these boards are not the place for blanket condemnations of the Roman Rite Mass. There are plenty of Traditionalist sites if you want to do that.

At the very least, please stop couching your interest in the Eastern Churches in terms of how much you hate the Novus Ordo...

...Sorry, I'm tired, and that probably sounded shrewish. But it is irritating to watch you protesting your disinterest in arguing the matter, then letting loose anyway.

Well said Non_Nomen, I apologize. I will take any further comments to other boards.

Yes, I do sing basso profundo actually and I usually just hum in harmony unless it is "Gospodi Pomilui" which I know quite well by now. I understood bits and pieces of the sermon on Sunday but it doesn't surprise me since my studies of the Polish language are ongoing. I think it may get to the point where I will study Russian/Ukrainian as well

Sorry, no plans to go to Chicago. The only place I'm going is out of the country back to Poland