www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Church Mandate versus Priest's Personal Spirituality

"... to be humble is one thing but being humiliated is another."

Very good point. Excellent material for a bumper sticker!

But should one's personal spirituality prevent a parish from living the fullness of one's tradition and liturgical life? For instance, is it OK for a priest to refuse celebrating Pre-Sanctified during the Great Fast (because it goes against his personal spirituality), but celebrate Chrysostom's liturgy instead (because it does fit HIS spirituality)?

Do we have means and ways of discerning the mind of the Church - and how that is expressed theologically and liturgically - and the mind or personal spirituality of the priest? Are typicons only for bishops and liturgists?

I find it fascinating, if not ironic, that we pride ourselves about our Traditions, Canons (iconographic, biblical, ecclesial legislation, etc), and guidelines of Biblical Interpretation and yet prefer "personal spirituality" in how the Church should celebrate its mysteries.

In short, have we become to the Liturgy what the thousands of independent Protestant and Evengelical churches have become to the Bible?


Your thoughts?

[ 07-31-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Joe,
I am wondering how much of a problem this is for the Church as a whole. I can see this in individual parish cases, but not as a problem for the whole Church.

That being said, if this is an issue, I believe that it is an issue between the priest, the parish, and the bishop. I do not really see how this issue can be addressed here on the forum.

You said earlier;


And while I agree with you that as a deacon you will be under the bishop, I also believe that you will be under the "command" of the priest who is pastor, or administrator, of the parish you are assigned to as the priest is the representative of the bishop.

I have another question for you.

How can the bishop's orders, if not illegal or unethical, be in conflict with ministry?


David

I believe that spirituality is source that is within us and constantly grows, that is, in my point of view,we don't take away anything from it but we add on to it. When a person is in search of a church or even a man who intends to enter the priesthood, he usually has already defined his spirituality, be it Roman Catholic or Byzantine. Making changes in the liturgy is a serious step, and usually not very acceptable by anyone, because you are dealing with prayer or better a form of prayer that has been past down to us by tradition. I for one, am not very happy with the changes that are happening down here in Brazil, that's why I'm trying to persuade some people and make them understand that we need to bring Studite monks to Brazil so as to maintain the Byzantine traditions in our Ukrainian churches. I am obedient to a point. I do not always agree with what our pastor says and he knows that. Whenever I have something to say, I always aprouch him with much respect and he has to hear what I have to say and I think he respects me for that. I believe that anyone who has a complaint or disagrees with certain steps that your priest or bishop has taken, you need to speak with others that are similar to your points of view and have a meeting so that you could present your arguments concretely but with respect.
Lauro

Another thought has come to mind on this issue....

How much of what we veiw as "Church Mandate versus Priest's Personal Spirituality" is really Our Personal Spirituality versus the Priest's Personal Spirituality or Our Personal Spirituality versus the Parishes Spirituality.


David

>>>How much of what we veiw as "Church Mandate versus Priest's Personal Spirituality" is really Our Personal Spirituality versus the Priest's Personal Spirituality or Our Personal Spirituality versus the Parishes Spirituality.<<<

That depends upon how well we know Tradition. Hegumen Nicholas of Holy Resurrection gave some very wise guidance when he said that in all things liturgical the Typicon should be our guide. And so it should, together with the Ordo Celebrationis, which provides the normative useage for the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches. How many priests, I wonder, have actually looked at it lately? Not to mention deacons, acolytes, lectors, cantors and even (heaven help us!) ordinary "pew dusters"?

David B Writes:

>Another thought has come to mind on this issue....

>How much of what we veiw as "Church Mandate versus Priest's Personal Spirituality" is really Our Personal Spirituality versus the Priest's Personal Spirituality or Our Personal Spirituality versus the Parishes Spirituality.

Good grief! How many 'spiritualities' are there? For us EOs, there is only one, and our job as catechumens and then as members of the Body of Christ is to acquire the mind [the nous, actually] of the Church. So that when we see one person worshipping one way, and another another, we do not look to see conflicts between personal, priestly, bishopric, parish, Vatican, Benedictine, Franciscan, and on and on "spiritualities"... Instead we tend to look and see what it is that the person is trying to accomplish. The bishop determines the liturgical format, and this with the common work meaning of liturgos firmly in mind, for this is the whole church praying together for all, and taking communion. The idea of competing or multiple "spiritualities" sounds very foreign to this EO catechumen, who remembers Paul saying "But we have the mind [nous] of Christ."

But then, we do not see "self expression" as a core component of worship. Instead we tend to embrace, to varying degrees, self denial...

Under the same bishop, in EOxy at least, you should tend to see but one liturgy, pretty much regardless of which parish under him you attend. Not that there are 'liturgy police' roaming the parishes, mind you!!


geo

Hi Joe,
I believe the preferred phrase is "...our beautiful Byzantine Rite" which most freely flowed from the mouths and pens of our clergy and hierarchs who were in the forefront of abbreviating the Liturgy, ripping out ikonostases, "simplifying" our chant, ignoring our traditional lenten services and doing their best to just plain turn us into Latins.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Blaisdell:

>>>Good grief! How many 'spiritualities' are there? For us EOs, there is only one, and our job as catechumens and then as members of the Body of Christ is to acquire the mind [the nous, actually] of the Church.<<<

But that nouos manifests itself in so many different ways, for is not Greek Orthodox spirituality different in many ways from Russian Orthodox spirituality, and Russian Orthodox spirituality different even from that of the Kyivan Church, let alone the Church of Antioch? And even within each of those traditions there are many variations.

So that when we see one person worshipping one way, and another another, we do not look to see conflicts between personal, priestly, bishopric, parish, Vatican, Benedictine, Franciscan, and on and on "spiritualities"... Instead we tend to look and see what it is that the person is trying to accomplish.<<<

How do we reconcile this with the liturgical snobbery so often encountered in one particular Orthodox Church?

>>>The bishop determines the liturgical format, and this with the common work meaning of liturgos firmly in mind, for this is the whole church praying together for all, and taking communion. The idea of competing or multiple "spiritualities" sounds very foreign to this EO catechumen, who remembers Paul saying "But we have the mind [nous] of Christ."<<<

That's the ideal. In this country at least, Orthodox reality is quite different. Or as some Russian wag put it, in America every priest acts like a bishop, but every parish council acts like a patriarch. You will find great variations in the liturgical life of Orthodox parishes, even within the same dioceses.

>>>But then, we do not see "self expression" as a core component of worship. Instead we tend to embrace, to varying degrees, self denial...<<<

Actually, Orthodox worship (except among certain rigorist groups) is pretty free-form: during the Liturgy people are all over the place, and they cross, metany, and even prostrate when THEY feel the Spirit move them. Except for the times when Wisdom! Be attentive! is proclaimed, the people are often doing just what they want to do.

>>>Under the same bishop, in EOxy at least, you should tend to see but one liturgy, pretty much regardless of which parish under him you attend. Not that there are 'liturgy police' roaming the parishes, mind you!!<<<

Good Lord! To just what Church do you belong?

Dear Stuart,

Good one, Old Wombat, really good!

Actually, you know where the liturgical skeletons of both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are so well, no wonder you sometimes gravitate to the Assyrians . . .

Alex

I understand how it evolved with the heritage. However, if we are to return to the fullness of the worship in words then, to me, returning to the fullness of the use of the body is just as important. Since we are called to worship God with every part of our being.

Rose

<<<

Well, if you take that approach to its logical conclusion, we should restore the truly processional nature of the Liturgy, and have everyone gather some distance from the church, singing antiphonal psalms along the way, and then all entering with the priest or deacon carrying the Gospel to the Holy Table. Then, at the Great Entrance, we would bring the Gifts in from the Skeuophylakion (sacristy), a separate building where they would have been sorted out and prepared by the deacons before the liturgy began, to the Holy Table by processing into the church.

But the Liturgy evolved to meet changing circumstances, and given the very small dimensions of most Slavic churches, there would have been very little reason to process all the way around the Church. In effect, what you are saying is that the authentic Tradition of the Slavic Churches just isn't authentic enough for you.

I think that there is a type of yin-yang operating within the churches. While we have the typikon (as Stuart points out quite correctly) as the gold standard, the 'realization' of the typikon is going to vary according to the circumstances. If, for example, at the old St. Michael's Ukrainian in Baltimore (in the middle of a block with NO room on either side - not even an alley), then the procession would have to go around a pretty big block. Some parishes would bite the bullet (like the old OL Kazan in South Boston) and process around the block (past a very popular nightclub with a ton of traffic -- and lots of sidewalk observers) and would return to the church building for the solemn entrance. [We would sometimes pass two Albanian Orthodox parish processions -- and there would be a TON of public incensings and loud proclamations of "Christ is Risen!! The local Boston Irish police were not quite sure what to make of all this. No wonder they drank a lot.]

My point is: we all observed the typikon to the letter. But we made emendations in its realization depending on the circumstances we had to deal with. Is there any parish that would start an outside Pascha procession while there was a raging spring thunderstorm outside, replete with heavy rain, wind and lightning? Don't think so. We're faithful; but we're not stupid.

Liturgy is a living realization of a pattern of faith and prayer. It's not a hidebound immutable performance. AND it takes both priest and congregation to create the realization. And if one or the other is deficient, then we're in deep doo-doo. (And if a priest decides he doesn't like Presanctified - for example - then the bishop should come in and kick some serious butt.)

Blessings!

"My point is: we all observed the typikon to the letter. But we made emendations in its realization depending on the circumstances we had to deal with."

Dr. John makes a good point, but many of the prescriptions for processions outside assume the temple is a building standing alone - not attached to the parish hall, church offices, the rectory, etc. As we keep building church 'complexes' we make such processions impossible if not very long. Three times around a tiny wooden temple is not a long walk, but once around a beautifully landscaped church complex is. We build in our own circumstances, sometimes.

Dear Cantor Joe,

The church of the miraculous Icon of Zarvanytsia in Ukraine has the tradition of making such processions around the Church on each and every Sunday and Feast Day from the Ascension to the Holy Protection in October.

One church I've heard about that has a copy of the icon in the U.S. has also begun this tradition.

We will be having our Feast of Our Lady of Zhirovits in October, and its processions all the way - around the Church that is!

I've heard of the tradition of circumambulation around shrines and churches in the Eastern Churches (something other religions in Asia practice as well).

St Seraphim of Sarov's disciples prayed by walking around the perimeter of the Monastery of Diveyevo, prayer ropes or Lestovkas in hand.

What is the source of this tradition? Is it a spill-over from the procession around the Church?

Alex

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

From Stuart K

>Originally posted by George Blaisdell:

>>>Good grief! How many 'spiritualities' are there? For us EOs, there is only one, and our job as catechumens and then as members of the Body of Christ is to acquire the mind [the nous, actually] of the Church.<<<

>But that nouos manifests itself in so many different ways, for is not Greek Orthodox spirituality different in many ways from Russian Orthodox spirituality, and Russian Orthodox spirituality different even from that of the Kyivan Church, let alone the Church of Antioch? And even within each of those traditions there are many variations.

Looks like a terminology issue - You seem to be calling a "spirituality" any cultural variation in the practice of the Christian faith, so if I've got you right, I agree... And from broad cultural differences, we can narrow down subcultural 'spiritualities', and within these, many, many more, eventually ending up with individual spiritualities, each different, and each individual's 'spirituality' a Christian one...

That was the problem I was alluding to in "How many spiritualities are there?" The Nous of Christ is one, and our efforts to acquire it all suffer under the economia of particularity, or at least I should think so...

>>>So that when we see one person worshipping one way, and another another, we do not look to see conflicts between personal, priestly, bishopric, parish, Vatican, Benedictine, Franciscan, and on and on "spiritualities"... Instead we tend to look and see what it is that the person is trying to accomplish.<<<

>How do we reconcile this with the liturgical snobbery so often encountered in one particular Orthodox Church?

Reconciliation of snobbery is not for the faint of heart!! :-) But to answer direct: I don't. We pray.

>>>The bishop determines the liturgical format, and this with the common work meaning of liturgos firmly in mind, for this is the whole church praying together for all, and taking communion. The idea of competing or multiple "spiritualities" sounds very foreign to this EO catechumen, who remembers Paul saying "But we have the mind [nous] of Christ."<<<

>That's the ideal. In this country at least, Orthodox reality is quite different. Or as some Russian wag put it, in America every priest acts like a bishop, but every parish council acts like a patriarch. You will find great variations in the liturgical life of Orthodox parishes, even within the same dioceses.

Well, being a newbe who is still groping his way toward the gates of repentance, and having very and precious little experience in the matter of attending lots of different churches, I just have to defer to your assertion, and do not doubt it a bit. The basics of Orthodox spirituality, however, are not, in my understanding to date at least, predicated upon such differences, and where they are, they would I hope be understood to stand in need of correction, yes?

>>>But then, we do not see "self expression" as a core component of worship. Instead we tend to embrace, to varying degrees, self denial...<<<

>Actually, Orthodox worship (except among certain rigorist groups) is pretty free-form: during the Liturgy people are all over the place, and they cross, metany, and even prostrate when THEY feel the Spirit move them. Except for the times when Wisdom! Be attentive! is proclaimed, the people are often doing just what they want to do.

Well, their worship is not an exercise in robotics, nor is it an audience, nor even audience participation, would you say??? Maybe some are - But my limited exposure has not seen them... Yet even the free-form to which you allude is an effort of self denial, not self assertion, yes?

>>>Under the same bishop, in EOxy at least, you should tend to see but one liturgy, pretty much regardless of which parish under him you attend. Not that there are 'liturgy police' roaming the parishes, mind you!!<<<

>Good Lord! To just what Church do you belong?

No need for panic!! All I was ascribing was what I am assuming to be a tendency, based on what I have seen in my own Church, where the liturgy was modified by the bishop and received somewhat uniformly by the churches under him. [Antiochian] I mean, I think you can rest assured that if our priest were to abandon that format, and introduce, say, recordings of hooting hyenas or improvs by The Who, corrections would not be long in forthcoming! :-)

Likewise, if a monastery were to rent out a meeting room for a shaman to teach shamanism to apprentice shamans, things would happen quickly to stop such a practice. Wrong 'spirituality'... [I heard of a RCC women's monastery in Mpls doing exactly this for a friend of mine giving such classes, and was shocked.]

Your msgs, btw, are a treasure to me! They are filled with such wealth of detail and insight - I sure as shootin' don't want any toe to toe with ya! I bleed too easy!


geo