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In all processions, always counter-clockwise. The pagans go the other direction. :p

Incensing, processing around temples, "Little" and "Great" entrances, baptism and marriage around the 'pod, ordination around the throne, "Let my pray ascend to you" during Pre-Sanctified, Paschal Matins, patronal feast days, Dormition burial shroud procession around the temple, etc. Always one way and not the other - just like the Temple priest at the altar in Jerusalem.

Processions are a normal event at my parish. We got it down with precision. The cantors and schola follows the clergy leading the folks praising the Lord. And to think the only procession I remember growing up was the one inside the church from station to station during Fridays of Lent and the one to the Marian Shrine for rosary and Fatima.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Blaisdell:

>>>Looks like a terminology issue - You seem to be calling a "spirituality" any cultural variation in the practice of the Christian faith, so if I've got you right, I agree...<<<

Partially. Within each Orthodox Church there is a self-evident spirituality, which while fully Orthodox,tends to emphasize some things more than others. Russian spirituality is very hesychast in outlook, particularly with the primacy of the Starets; it tends to be very monastically oriented. Within many Greek Orthodox parishes, there is a more "public" or "practical" spirituality, that is more "parochial". And so forth. Each community within Orthodoxy drew from the richness of the Orthodox Tradition different threads which it picked up and wove into its own garment.

>>>And from broad cultural differences, we can narrow down subcultural 'spiritualities', and within these, many, many more, eventually ending up with individual spiritualities, each different, and each individual's 'spirituality' a Christian one...<<<

Quite right. "Personalism" within the context of community is at the heart of all Orthodox spirituality; it's what keeps it from deteriorating into pietism on the one hand and regimentation on the other.

>>>That was the problem I was alluding to in "How many spiritualities are there?" The Nous of Christ is one, and our efforts to acquire it all suffer under the economia of particularity, or at least I should think so...<<<

It's definitely hard to express, but I think I agree with you on this.

>>>Reconciliation of snobbery is not for the faint of heart!! :-) But to answer direct: I don't. We pray.<<<

That is the proper thing to do. But such snobbery exists, as one can plainly see on the faces of members of one Church when they attend the liturgy of another. "The way we pray in my village is the right way".

>>>Well, being a newbe who is still groping his way toward the gates of repentance, and having very and precious little experience in the matter of attending lots of different churches, I just have to defer to your assertion, and do not doubt it a bit.<<<

The quality of liturgy in the Orthodox Church can be wildly uneven (especially here in the West)--a fact lamented by Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann more than once: the theory of Orthodox worship often does not live up to the reality. And, ironically, it is in those jurisdictions and parishes dominated by converts that one sees liturgy celebrated most closely to the theoretical ideal (which has been taken by some cradle Orthodox as evidence that the converts don't have a properly "Orthodox" outlook--so you can't win for losing). Some of the most "Orthodox" liturgies I've ever attended have been in Greek Catholic parishes, while some of the worst abuses I've ever seen have been in Orthodox ones--and vice versa. No Church has a monopoly on good--or bad--liturgy.

>>>The basics of Orthodox spirituality, however, are not, in my understanding to date at least, predicated upon such differences, and where they are, they would I hope be understood to stand in need of correction, yes?<<<

Orthodox spirituality is anchored to and radiates outward from the liturgy of the Church, which is the touchstone and the origin of all theology. Therefore, good liturgy nourishes the spiritual life of the people, and poor liturgy impoverishes it. Stylistic differences in liturgical celebrations can have subtle effects on the spirituality of a particular congregation or even a Church. Spirituality in turn affects the liturgical style, in an iterative process. The glory of Byzantine Christianity, whether Orthodox or Catholic, is that Russians are not Ukrainians are not Rusyns are not Bulgarians are not Romanians are not Serbians are not Antiochenes are not Alexandrines, etc., etc., etc. Some day, we can add to that list Africans, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and---Americans.

>>>Well, their worship is not an exercise in robotics, nor is it an audience, nor even audience participation, would you say???<<<

Ideally, we are not the audience, nor are the clergy the actors; rather, clergy and people together are the actors of the divine drama, and God is the audience. The free flow of worship within the naos of the church is the part of the stage on which the people act out their part--with a lot of extemporization at times.

>>>Maybe some are - But my limited exposure has not seen them... Yet even the free-form to which you allude is an effort of self denial, not self assertion, yes?<<<

The truly great iconographers (Andrei Rublev, Feofan Grec, Diyonisi Chorni)can, while remaining entirely within the iconographic canons, inject their own unique perspectives and insights into the images they produce. The Holy Spirit moves creatively within them without exalting them or elevating their egos to pride of place; likewise, the Holy Spirit can move within the hearts of those present in the liturgy, so that they may express themselves and their insights without exalting them or elevating them to pride of place, either.

>>>No need for panic!! All I was ascribing was what I am assuming to be a tendency, based on what I have seen in my own Church, where the liturgy was modified by the bishop and received somewhat uniformly by the churches under him. [Antiochian]<<<

That explains a lot (see my comment regarding "convert" parishes, above). Yet within the older, more homogeneously ethnic Antiochene parishes, you will find quite a lot of "quirks". Also, if you remember the Ben Lomond fiasco, I think you will see that there were, even within the converts of the AOC, many quite willing to go off on their own regarding liturgical practice (someday, would somebody please write an objective and comprehensive history of that incident? Finding out the truth today is like asking about Mr. Rochester's first wife).

>>>I mean, I think you can rest assured that if our priest were to abandon that format, and introduce, say, recordings of hooting hyenas or improvs by The Who, corrections would not be long in forthcoming! :-)<<<

That's a bit extreme, and you don't find anything like that in the Ruthenian Church, thank goodness. What we are talking about is a situation not present in most Orthodox jurisdictions, which is a large body of priests serving in a particular Tradition whose theological and spiritual formation took place in seminaries belonging to a very different Tradition (far worse, to some anyway, than having Ukrainians educated at Russian seminaries). Now, with the Byzantine Catholic Churches attempting to restore their own legitimate Tradition, including liturgical useage, there are many priests who do not, either explicitly or implicitly, consider such a reform to be legitimate, and who therefore resist conforming to the new norms (see Robert Taft's scathing essay, "Liturgy in the Life of the Church", which was delivered to the assemgled Eastern Catholic hierarchs of North America in November 1999). Many of them actually think that Latin ways are superior (though these are, thankfully, few in number and getting fewer all the time). Others believe that there is a unique "Greek Catholic" tradition which is a "tertium quid" between East and West, and who therefore have no objection to hybridizations. And then there are a few who suffer from what Fr. Taft calls "liturgical narcissism"--the belief that the liturgy belongs to the clergy and can be just what Joe has called it, a platform for the expression of the priest's own personal spirituality. Over time, given the arrival of new priests educated at Byzantine seminaries and formed in the Byzantine Tradition, all of these, it is hoped, will fade away.

>>>Likewise, if a monastery were to rent out a meeting room for a shaman to teach shamanism to apprentice shamans, things would happen quickly to stop such a practice.<<<

I've heard of similar things. Money is money, in the minds of many, and the Parish Council has to keep it's eye on the bottom line.

>>>Wrong 'spirituality'... [I heard of a RCC women's monastery in Mpls doing exactly this for a friend of mine giving such classes, and was shocked.]<<<

Your winnings, Captain Reynaud.

>>>Your msgs, btw, are a treasure to me! They are filled with such wealth of detail and insight - I sure as shootin' don't want any toe to toe with ya! I bleed too easy!<<<

Thank you and bless you. Search always for the truth, no matter where it leads, and even if it hurts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB]>>>In all processions, always counter-clockwise. The pagans go the other direction. :p <<<

They cross themselves backwards, too.

>>>Processions are a normal event at my parish. We got it down with precision. The cantors and schola follows the clergy leading the folks praising the Lord.<<<

Have you ever seen any of those 19th century Russian paintings of religious processions? There may be order in them, but precision is not the word I would use: a plethora of icons, banners, reliquaries, monks, nuns, hierarchs, priests, penitents, fools, muzhiks, noblemen--all in a vast array of perambulating holiness. And, apparently, these processions would go on for some distance--like from a parish church to a shrine or monastery, often stopping at other churches to pick up steam.

>>>And to think the only procession I remember growing up was the one inside the church from station to station during Fridays of Lent and the one to the Marian Shrine for rosary and Fatima.<<<

And the world will be a better place.

Dear Cantor Joe,

So we've come a long way, baby . . . in terms of processions that is!

The counter-clockwise thing is interesting. Tibetan Buddhists are addicted to circumambulations and they even follow the same counter-clockwise direction when they chant on their prayer beads!

They actually DO believe that to chant on beads from the clockwise or the left side of the prayer beads rather than the right is to invite evil!

When people do such processions, can they say the Jesus Prayer silently?

I've mean in too many where the opportunity seems to be to talk shop rather than religion.

Although for some of us religion is "shop."

Alex

From Stuart

>Orthodox spirituality is anchored to and radiates outward from the liturgy of the Church, which is the touchstone and the origin of all theology. Therefore, good liturgy nourishes the spiritual life of the people, and poor liturgy impoverishes it.

Most certainly the Divine Liturgy has to be seen as the nurture of the Church, for in it the communion of the faithful eat and drink of our Lord.

>Stylistic differences in liturgical celebrations can have subtle effects on the spirituality of a particular congregation or even a Church.

I believe that.

>Spirituality in turn affects the liturgical style, in an iterative process.

As well, the spiritual stature of the celebrating clergy has an impact, I should think. I know that I experience the liturgy somewhat differently with different priests, even within our own Church, when con-celebrating.

>The free flow of worship within the naos of the church is the part of the stage on which the people act out their part--with a lot of extemporization at times.

Yes.

>>>No need for panic!! All I was ascribing was what I am assuming to be a tendency, based on what I have seen in my own Church, where the liturgy was modified by the bishop and received somewhat uniformly by the churches under him. [Antiochian]<<<

>That explains a lot (see my comment regarding "convert" parishes, above). Yet within the older, more homogeneously ethnic Antiochene parishes, you will find quite a lot of "quirks".

I have heard of some of them, and the challenges offered to Arabic speaking priests serving in convert parishes! [Some of the dogs just won't hunt!] :-)

>Also, if you remember the Ben Lomond fiasco,

That was a part of the reason for the new order of worship, the new liturgical format, I think... Lomand had a 'liturgical committee' set up to establish their own liturgy, and there was one seemingly minor variation where some deacon bowed toward the priest at some point instead of toward the icon of Christ - I do not have the details, just the general gist - And the whole matter was an effort to Americanize the liturgy, and the Bishop ended up doing it himself [or at least his office]...

>(someday, would somebody please write an objective and comprehensive history of that incident? Finding out the truth today is like asking about Mr. Rochester's first wife).

Reduction of a badly compounded fracture generally requires a carfull of large Swedes, of a really good anasthetic, and neither are even yet all that available on the Ben Lomand matter. I am WAY out of that loop - I spent my first fifty years pretty much avoiding Christians... So I cannot clear up much for you...

>Thank you and bless you. Search always for the truth, no matter where it leads, and even if it hurts.

I am beginning to get this idea that if it doesn't hurt, it's more than likely not true - Which should, I would imagine, be at least half of it!

Thanks for yet another helpful post...

geo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Blaisdell:

>>>Most certainly the Divine Liturgy has to be seen as the nurture of the Church, for in it the communion of the faithful eat and drink of our Lord.<<<

Not just the Divine Liturgy, but the entire liturgical patrimony of the Church, and particularly Orthros and Vespers, which, if anything contribute more to the mystagogy of the Church than does the Divine Liturgy itself.

>>>As well, the spiritual stature of the celebrating clergy has an impact, I should think. I know that I experience the liturgy somewhat differently with different priests, even within our own Church, when con-celebrating.<<<

Much can be discerned from the homily. We have several priests at my parish, each very good. But each gives very different homilies--one is what I would call "patristic", another is very pragmatic, and the third is very personalistic. Each one is interpreting the Word, but each does so through the prism of his own experience, spirituality, and insight.


>>>>Also, if you remember the Ben Lomond fiasco,

That was a part of the reason for the new order of worship, the new liturgical format, I think... Lomand had a 'liturgical committee' set up to establish their own liturgy, and there was one seemingly minor variation where some deacon bowed toward the priest at some point instead of toward the icon of Christ - I do not have the details, just the general gist - And the whole matter was an effort to Americanize the liturgy, and the Bishop ended up doing it himself [or at least his office]...<<<

On such trifles are schisms built. We got a very good priest out of it (Fr. David Anderson).


>>>I am beginning to get this idea that if it doesn't hurt, it's more than likely not true - Which should, I would imagine, be at least half of it!<<<

Maybe that should be printed on the fly leaf of every catechism.

<https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon1.gif> posted 08-01-2002 01:27 PM [Profile for StuartK] [Author's Homepage] [Send New Private Message] [Edit/Delete Post] [Reply With Quote] [QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB]>>>In all processions, always counter-clockwise. The pagans go the other direction. <https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/tongue.gif> <<<

They cross themselves backwards, too.

>>>Processions are a normal event at my parish. We got it down with precision. The cantors and schola follows the clergy leading the folks praising the Lord.<<<

>>Have you ever seen any of those 19th century Russian paintings of religious processions? There may be order in them, but precision is not the word I would use: a plethora of icons, banners, reliquaries, monks, nuns, hierarchs, priests, penitents, fools, muzhiks, noblemen--all in a vast array of perambulating holiness. And, apparently, these processions would go on for some distance--like from a parish church to a shrine or monastery, often stopping at other churches to pick up steam.<<<


The saddest procession I have ever seen was footage of the Russians marching to bondfires with those same icons and holy relics that they used in processions around their churches, and thowing them on the fire after Stalin came into leadership. I greived for days over what I had seen. The love of God could be destroyed that easy, by someone saying they no longer needed God, and this was the way they showed it outwardly.

If we don't use the richness in our traditions that God has given us, they can be taken away that easily.

Rose

OK. Let me throw in what may seem to be a monkey wrench.

I initially stated my case about obedience for cantors, but I remember the Professors of old telling me how it was through their ordination that obliged them to be obedient to their bishop. Do unordained and unmercenary cantors have the same obligations as ordained ones with salaries? I don't remember ever taking a vow or promise of obedience.

I, like most cantors, are volunteers stepping in where there is a void trying to do something for the glory of God. I never received instructions, guidelines, a contract, salary or stipend, that specifies the scope of my ministry as cantor. Now, I don't think of disobeying, but I can't help but notice how the Church has not requested obedience formally or through ordination. Yet priests are ordained and do receive a salary and sometimes do not follow the Typicon or instructions from their bishop or refuse to celebrate Byzantine liturgical services as prescribed because they go against their "personal spirituality."

What gives with what seems to be a double-standard?

Joe,

I am responsible for my own obedience, not my pastor's.

My pastor is in charge until such time as the Bishop or the good Lord decides otherwise.

If our "ordo" seems to contradict the Typicon, I will bring it up with my pastor, but in the end, he is the celebrant, and he is in charge.

If something really bugs me, and I've talked with my pastor & with my Spiritual Father, I might drop the Bishop a note.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Sharon,

Thank you for your words. I am not suggesting disobedience. I often wonder why those who are not ordained and are unmercenaries are responsible and those clerics who are ordained and take promises of obedience are not responsible? Is obedience mere lip-service? I would think that those who make such formal promises would actually follow through on them.

Fr. David mentioned priests who refuse to do things because of their "personal spiritualities." This is conduct unbecoming of those who were entrusted to minister to God's people under the omophorion of their bishop. In the real world, these folks would have been fired a long time ago for either doing there own thing or for attempting to sell products their company doesn't sell.

Your thoughts?

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Joe,

All I can do is to repeat that I've got enough to do minding the state of my own soul.

Sure, stuff happens in my parish that I don't agree with. If it's a big deal, I follow the steps above. If not, well, I think it is also harmful when parish "leaders" - and though we are unofficial, unpaid, unordained and three steps below the lowest peon, we are viewed as having some leadership role - when parish leaders argue, it causes greter harm IMHO to the community than Father deciding everybody has to stand during the Proskomedia, or including three liturgies that nobody's taken outside of a monastery in years.

My job isn't to decide church policy, or the state of my pastor's soul.

Perhaps this is intellectual laziness, but I've got to live here.


Sharon

Sharon,

Nobody is suggesting arguing in front of the parishioners. Your steps in dealing with conflict are good.