www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church?

Dear friends,

As many of you know, I have been worrying a great deal about the future of our Byzantine Catholic Church. I love it dearly, and I am very concerned about it's future. It seems to me, from my particular vantage point, that people are leaving fast. I'm not sure why.

Just the other day I got an email from a young Byzantine Catholic in NY state. He has been doing a lot of praying and spiritual seeking, and he believes that God is calling him to "switch rites" and become a Roman Catholic Priest. He plans on doing so very soon.

This sort of thing seems to be very common in Byzantine Catholicism. It breaks my heart. I LOVE our Church so much, and I don't want her to vanish. But things seem to be out of my hands.

But I must ask a question: does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church? Or does he want it to vanish? Is he REALLY calling all of these people to leave it?

You may recall that my crisis in this area began as a result of my childhood best friend leaving to become RC. He is now a model RC in every respect, and believes that God called him out of Byzantine Catholicism and into the Roman Church.

Again, I realize that things probably aren't as bad as they appear from my vantage point. I currently live in a dying steel town, and the average age of the parishioners in my parish is 75. But this is a real issue that weighs upon my soul. I wonder if there will be a Byzantine Catholic Church left in this country for my grandchildren to grow up in.

I would really appreciate your words and advice on this matter. Is there a future for us? When I see the vibrancy of the RC parishes, and all of the new converts they are bringing in, I wonder what we are doing wrong.

This is my soul searching. Please take it with a grain of salt.

Anthony

Anthony, I don't know how the situation is where you live, but here in NY things are doing well at my parish. I have started going to the local Byzantine parish 6 months ago and I always see new faces there. I have also brought my best friend with me and he is thinking of permanently transfering to the Byzantine Church as I am. We are both in our twenties and I would say the average age at our parish is probably 35. I know of other people from my former parish which is Roman Catholic, who are also thinking of starting to change to the Byzantine parish. I think it may be the geography of where you are. I just don't see any impending extinction where I am. I hope things turn for the better where you are.

In Christ,

Joseph

Dear Anthony,

Sorry to hear of the attrition and of your despondency. I have wondered aloud recently to a BC acquaintance if the attrition you describe is really greater than the influx of ex-Romans zealous at least for tradition and the faith and who often become keen Orthophiles as well, like many who write online in places including this.

But I must ask a question: does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church? Or does he want it to vanish? Is he really calling all of these people to leave it?

To answer your questions in order: yes, He does. No, He doesn�t. No. Your Church is a pearl of great price and the devil, who�s pumped up on steroids these days, would love few things better than to knock this last oasis and refuge for the saving of souls off the face of God�s earth.

First, the devil is playing traditionalists against each other, from the very few (in my experience, though recently I�ve run across it again) attacks from traditional Romans to the too-familiar attacks from Orthodox online. We�ve all got to get our s*** together and stop being pawns.

Secondly, there is the corrosiveness of secular culture, both straight up and in its churchy form, influence from the Novus Ordo � not from newcomer ex-RCs but from ethnic born Greek Catholics who pick it up at the Roman church where they once live or now live (after all � gack � �Catholic is Catholic�) or priests who�ve been corrupted in their formation thanks to �Catholic� colleges (those who talk about heresies and false religions as �faith traditions�, etc.). There are several fronts in this war, Anthony.

If there is one thing I have learned from being Orthodox, it�s that it�s not �comfortable�; it doesn�t �fit� Protestant/secular American culture. Protestantism in its various forms fits it like a hand in a glove (and some forms of it like the charismatic movement were after all invented here); Roman Catholicism in practice today has distorted itself to fit. (I once even had a radically conservative RC ex-friend lace into me for being out of the mainstream!) But our tradition, Anthony, does not fit. And I wouldn�t want it any other way. It�s American culture that�s got the problem.

I haven�t got statistics but I daresay the attrition among the Orthodox is at least as bad; only without the lateral attrition to the RCs that bleeds your church. The third-generation folks are like Jennifer Aniston (Agnastopoulos?) seems to be: they wanna fit in.

As Stuart has written elsewhere, Bishop Kallistos says in the future the only Orthodox left will be those who are Orthodox by choice. I think that means us on both sides of the Tiber.

Hang tough, Anthony. Being in your church and being serious about being Eastern while so doing is a kind of martyrdom.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Hi Anthony, this is not intended to be a reasoned, intellectual response to your questioning, it's just an off-the-cuff emotional "sharing."

Does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church?

-- I firmly believe He does, because He's brought us this far, through all kinds of human and diabolical forces working against us. After all, look at the heroic faith of our Church under atheistic Communism. Not to mention how many things here in the USA, that "despite it all" here we are.

-- I firmly believe He does, because we are the icons of Him, and there are many people (such as you, Anthony!) who dearly love our Byzantine Catholic Church. Whence comes that love? Only one place. You know where.

-- I firmly believe He does, because in this Church there is much being worked in His name and for His glory, however imperfect or feeble it may seem from time to time. Simple works of mercy and compassion, sharing each other's burdens, lifting one another up -- I've seen it and been countless times the recipient of it. To witness the tremendous devotion of many of our faithful to that which is ours -- whether it's in a Latinized, clericalized, ethnocentric, or otherwise less-than-ideal form -- evokes in me, at least, a wonder at what Providence brought *me* to this community, this family. It isn't always pretty, but at its root it is beautiful, which, again, can only come from one source.

-- This family we belong to has all sorts of people, all sorts of local communities. Some are healthy, some are kind of in a daze, some are in the twilight of their life. Some are yet to be born. But in all these things, it is real, it's human, it's not something created from paper ideals or to fulfill a man-made agenda.

God loves the Byzantine Catholic Church. Maybe the answer is we need to love Him more.

Anthony,

We've spoken about Evangelism. I'm not sure that the Church growth people have exactly what we want. I've been there and done that within a Protestant context. What God seems to be looking for are true conversions.

God has given us a calling. We are to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. Many are being reminded of our true calling.

I know. I know. I'm new. Yet, I believe new people may have something to say to the Church about how to attract new people. I would not have come the Byzantine Catholic way if it were just American Culture with a thin patina a Christianity. I don't believe God wants us to go for those kinds of people. I don't believe the seekers model is for us.

I strongly believe that we can offer integrity. Not with Madison Avenue techiniques but with conferences and mostly by word of mouth, friends inviting friends. Friends who will stand with their friends.

And for God sake...get rid of those damn pews!

Dan Lauffer

Dear Servant of God, Anthony

Glory to Jesus Christ !

If you think our church has problems wait till you move to Monroeville and get a close up view of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh. Law suits are flying around like crazy over church closeings. Last year, 1999, the R.C. Diocese of Pittsburgh ordained ZERO men to the priesthood. Yes, that means our Archeparchy ordained more men than the R.C. diocese. And in our Metropolia you will not find groups such as "Call To Action" or "Catholics For A Free Choice". You're in for a real treat when you get to know the R.C. diocese here in Pittsburgh. You'll get down on your knees and thank God that your soul is under the spiritual care of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Joe Prokopchak
A sinner in much need of God's mercy

Dear Anthony,

Oh yes, God loves this Church very much.

He assigned to us Nicholas as a patron! With a pastor like that in heaven, we don't have to worry. God is loving, and generous.!

Happy Saint Nicholas Day!

Christian

Anthony,

Of course, God loves everyone, all people of good will, the Church and all Christian communities.

I will admit the future of the Eastern Catholic churches in North America does not look good. But we should not be overly focused on the one situation here, particularly given that the Church has no serious historical experience with different ritual churches in the same geographic place and among the same social group.

But in those parts of the world where Eastern Catholicism exists has the principal expression of the Catholic faith we are booming. In Ukraine, the Churches and seminaries are full, Liturgy attendence is the highest of any part of Europe, particularly any part of the former USSR. The Greek Catholic Churches in Poland, Slovakia and Romania are vibrant and growing.
Even in Hungary, which did not suffer liquidation under communism like the rest a revivial is occuring.

The Belarusan Greek Catholic Church has ten times the members it had the last time it was free.

In the Middle East, the crisis of the emigrantion of the Christian population is being effectivly adressed with critical support from the Vatican (God bless them).

In India, our Eastern catholic brothers and sisters are evangelizing at one of the strongest rates in the world.

The Church is Eritia is doing great things with the faithful there and is a voice for peace and justice.

What happens in North America will happen. But in most of the world, we have amazing opportunities.

K.

Kurt:

You wrote:

>>>But we should not be overly focused on the one situation here, particularly given that the Church has no serious historical experience with different ritual churches in the same geographic place and among the same social group.

How can you say that? Before the separation, there were not multiple jurisdictions, granted, but for instance there were Latin churches in Constantinople and vice versa. On a grander scale, in the Middle East Eastern Christians of all stripes have coexisted with their Latin counterparts for centuries in large numbers. In Kerala, India there are Syrian and Latin Catholics and that's been the situation for 500 years.

anastasios

Anthony, you bring up an interesting point. Most Eastern Catholics that were formerly Roman Catholics feel as if they were "called" by God to be Eastern Catholic. If that's truly the case, then it's not impossible that God would "call" an Eastern Catholic into the Roman Catholic Church.

With that said, personally I do not believe that any of us are "called" to be the part of any particular tradition. We are born into a particular culture and ideally we embrace the Catholicism that is "consistent" with our culture. Meaning that if we are born in Ireland, we are meant to be Roman Catholics or if we are born in Ukraine we are meant to be Ukrainian Catholic.

The idea that we could reject our culture and embrace a different faith tradition is fundamentally western (even if we choose an eastern tradition). Perhaps that in itself is the death knell for Eastern Catholicism in the United States. If we allow Roman Catholics to choose to reject their culture and embrace the culture that they prefer (as I said, nothing is more western than this kind of a choice), then how we can we not expect Eastern Catholics to make the same kind of choice? And because being "western" is not quite as counter-cultural for people living in the US, then it stands to reason that the traffic will always be more towards Roman Cathoicism as opposed to Eastern Catholicism.

Jennifer

<<But I must ask a question: does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church? Or does he want it to vanish? Is he REALLY calling all of these people to leave it?

You may recall that my crisis in this area began as a result of my childhood best friend leaving to become RC. He is now a model RC in every respect, and believes that God called him out of Byzantine Catholicism and into the Roman Church.>>

anastasios,

Yes, but you miss the key clause - "among the same social group". In Galicia, Latin and Greek Catholics lived side by side for centuries -- but as distinct social groups, Polish and Ukrainian. Even more so in the Middle East, where the ritual patrimonies formed the basis of the Millet system. Maronite and Syriac Catholics considered themselves distinct social group far beyond matters of religious patrimony.

To Jennifer, I must disagree in part. While this concept of "call" seems to be unknown to the Byzantine Tradition and therefore I guess a latinism (at least to a degree beyond that one might have a "call" to worshiping in Gregorian Chant, or practicing Ignatian sprituality) and accepting transritualism as normative might well be more to the disadvantage of Eastern than Western Catholicism, one can accept that even a non-normative practice might be the best action for some (likely a few) people, given the great complexity and variance of human personalities.

As I have said, while Catholicism normatively expresses itself in a single way in a given culture and society (though multiple cultures and societies can exist in a given geograhphic place), the world is often not normative.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 12-06-2000).]

Glory to Jesus Christ.

As the US is not rooted in any particular Church, having been founded on the sequential errors of English Protestantism and the English Enlightenment, ISTM the American people are fair game for any and all particular Churches, the beliefs of the John Irelands notwithstanding. Though it is Western, it is definitely not rooted in Roman Catholicism like Ireland or Italy. The people of the US�s cultural and historical mother country, England, arguably are RCs manqu� but I don�t think Americans are.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Jennifer,

I cannot agree with you. What culture were the Earliest Christians drawn into? What culture are pagans drawn into? Culture is nice but there is more to faith than culture.

Dan Lauffer

With that said, personally I do not believe that any of us are "called" to be the part of any particular tradition. We are born into a particular culture and ideally we embrace the Catholicism that is "consistent" with our culture. Meaning that if we are born in Ireland, we are meant to be Roman Catholics or if we are born in Ukraine we are meant to be Ukrainian Catholic.

The idea that we could reject our culture and embrace a different faith tradition is fundamentally western (even if we choose an eastern tradition). Perhaps that in itself is the death knell for Eastern Catholicism in the United States. If we allow Roman Catholics to choose to reject their culture and embrace the culture that they prefer (as I said, nothing is more western than this kind of a choice), then how we can we not expect Eastern Catholics to make the same kind of choice? And because being "western" is not quite as counter-cultural for people living in the US, then it stands to reason that the traffic will always be more towards Roman Cathoicism as opposed to Eastern Catholicism.

Jennifer

>>Most Eastern Catholics that were formerly Roman Catholics feel as if they were "called" by God to be Eastern Catholic. If that's truly the case, then it's not impossible that God would "call" an Eastern Catholic into the Roman Catholic Church.<<

Agreed. The Lord calls us to go where He wills.


>>With that said, personally I do not believe that any of us are "called" to be the part of any particular tradition. We are born into a particular culture and ideally we embrace the Catholicism that is "consistent" with our culture. Meaning that if we are born in Ireland, we are meant to be Roman Catholics or if we are born in Ukraine we are meant to be Ukrainian Catholic. <<

I disagree. By this reasoning I should be a Protestant since I was born in America, as were my parents. While numerous faith contributions have contributed to our American culture one must acknowledge that it is built on an Anglo-Saxon Protestant foundation since they made up the vast majority of our founding fathers. Even if one buys into this argument two questions immediately arise: 1) How is Roman Catholicism more "consistent" with our American culture than is Byzantine Catholicism? [if it were not for the misguided "Americanist" Archbishop John Ireland and his ilk there would still be a much greater ethnic content in Roman Catholicism in this country] and 2) If one considers Roman Catholicism is "consistent" with our culture, must one then conclude that Byzantine Catholicism is not consistent with our culture? If so, then should it be abolished? If yes, why? If no, why not? A logical extension of this argument would also be to conclude that Orthodoxy has no place in American culture. Taking this a bit further, should one then seek to stop Roman Catholics from their active evangelism in Ukraine and Russia? Or expel Roman Catholics from the Mid-East and India where they have historically sought to overtake the local Eastern Christian Church. See the can of worms this argument opens?


>>The idea that we could reject our culture and embrace a different faith tradition is fundamentally western (even if we choose an eastern tradition).<<

Curious. Are you saying that Eastern Catholicism cannot exist apart from the ethnic culture of our spiritual ancestors? Or that one raised a Buddhist in Asia can never really become any type of Catholic? If so, than I seriously disagree. But I think I am just missing your point.

>>Perhaps that in itself is the death knell for Eastern Catholicism in the United States.<<

Actually, if there is such a thing as a "death knell" for Eastern Catholics (which I disagree with) it is that we mistakenly raised a generation to be Catholic first, Byzantine second. Our leaders of that era thought they were buying acceptance from the Roman Catholics but no Church who looks to another for its self worth deserves to survive. Our Church faces many problems; the largest being that in the geographic areas in which our church was strongest the young people have fled because of economic circumstances. The people who remain are the older ones who built our parishes. We have chosen to be content with a caretaker role rather than to start evangelizing. This will change, as there is now a solid but small younger group of Byzantine Catholics on which to build a new foundation from which to evangelize. I, for one, believe that our Byzantine Catholic tradition speaks more to the peoples of America than does the Roman Catholic tradition. But even when we act to evangelize we still have the responsibility of caring for our older folk in the areas where parishes cannot financially survive (the Romans and other churches have this same problem).

>If we allow Roman Catholics to choose to reject their culture and embrace the culture that they prefer (as I said, nothing is more western than this kind of a choice), then how we can we not expect Eastern Catholics to make the same kind of choice?<

Agreed. Sometimes the Spirit leads people; sometimes they make their own way for other reasons. People often just simply want to belong to the majority Church where no one asks questions. Others simply come to find a home in a Church different from the one they were raised in.

>>And because being "western" is not quite as counter-cultural for people living in the US, then it stands to reason that the traffic will always be more towards Roman Cathoicism as opposed to Eastern Catholicism. <<

Substitute "larger" for "western" and I will agree, but only to a point. Our major problem is our poor witness of our faith.

Moose,

I really think that our long suit is integrity. Much of Protestantism is built on big promises and very little delivery. Look at how the Romans have so often compromised in order to fit in. We have a spirituality that is deep and powerful and unrelated to our ethnicity.

Anecdotaly when I pastored United Methodist Churches I never felt comfortable doing any kind of serious prayer upon entering the sanctuary. The few times I tried I was criticized for making a show of my piety. People have a viceral reaction against the advertizing hype of our society but what else can a Protestant church offer?

This has not been my experience in the Byzantine Catholic Church. The setting draws me to worship. I'm not comfortable doing anything else but praying. I immediately go to an icon and venerate it. I'm immediately drawn to worship God. I'm close to tears of joy everytime I enter. I know I'm not being sold a bill of goods.

This is what will attract the honest seeker to God: Integrity.

Dan Lauffer