www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church?

Sharon, good question. The people of the Kievan Rus did not reject their culture when they became Christian. They "meshed" their culture with Christianity. However, if a Rusyn became Roman Catholic, they would reject their culture and adopt a different culture.

Jennifer

<<Just wondering - did the people of the Kievan Rus' reject their culture when they embraced the Faith?>>

Jennifer,

I disagree that it is impossible for a group of people to be without culture. One cannot call the �popular culture� in the US (the media, entertainment, technology, etc.) the real deal. Entertaining and diverting � yes. Real culture � NO. Romano Guardini in his book �The End of the Modern World� has a marvelous meditation on �culture-less� culture.

We are in a situation where the �culture-rich� churches struggle to define their relationship with the pervading non-culture. Perhaps the Eastern Churches, because they depend more heavily on a rich culture to carry the weight of the symbols and total spiritual experience, struggle the hardest. But this is also their great opportunity.

In Christ,
Steven

Jennifer,

The Roman Catholic church does not have a single, monolithic relationship to the surrounding non-culture. Which is the �real� latin church: my suburban parish with many young families where people are busy, busy, busy or the nearby Benedictine monastery where my son is educated? Both are certainly Western, but the spiritual lives are wildly different.

Westernism is not this uniform thing that we cannot wash out of our hair. Certainly one who is imbued with the Benedictine way is much closer to the Christian East than is the busy suburbanite. Yes, the East is a different beast, but there are many mansions in the Western mindset, some of which are surprisingly close to the East.

In Christ,
Steven

Jennifer, your in depth sociological analysis is in itself very western. If we take your analysis to its logical conclusion we should all become Puritan, because that is where American culture is rooted to the core when all the layers are peeled off. The Roman Catholic Church here has even adapted Puritan characteristics. If you have visited Italy, France or Spain you will understand the differences between American Roman Catholicism and Mediterranean Roman Catholicism.

Oh so many questions.

anastasios
I think the pro-choice position here does not address the reality of conversion and evangelization. Coming into the Catholic faith is not like joining a healthclub that has different membership plans or buying a house in a development as the friendly salesman shows you the different models available.


That is true and should be remembered. The Church in her writings on this matter tends to omit though never deny that. She also does not elaborate on it. The suggestion is that the spiritual benefit is even more exceptional that the other reasons she usually discussess. Nevertheless, the Church wisely leaves this to private judgement and pastoral discretion.


Like baptism and chrismation, it may well be indeliable. I am not talking about continuing to make the sign of the cross "backwards" (to me) or any other physical practice. I am sure your Indian friend still understands Indian society and culture in a way in which a non-native never can. it is not an issue of totaling up to 100%. A person might well be 100% Latin and 100% Greek.

I think we have to be sensitive to the fact that patrimony means more than just some canonical transfer like state residency.

Rusnak:
Not true at all. But the hair trigger than even a mention that this is a pastoral situation does tell me something. I think the Catholic Church does the right thing by recognizing transritualism as non-normative yet almost always (particularly in the indivudual cases that occur in North America as opposed to some situation where ritual transfer is related to campaigns of denationalization) deferrs to personal judgement and local pastoral discretion. Additionally, the Church seems to note that the North American transritualists generally tend to be theologically well educated individuals for whom the transfer avoids what could otherwise be points of concern.

However, if we recognized ritual transfer as normative, in the end, the eastern churches lose. It counterdicts the Church's understanding that easterners, even those who migrate, should be pastorally cared for according to their own patrimony, as it is a great burden to the faith otherwise. In other words, it is not a preference and certainly the latin concept of "calling" has its flaws in this particular application.

In the case of the Greeks, faith preserved the culture and the culture preserved the faith. Other Balkan ethnic groups, like the Albanians, were more clan orientated and were without the strong unifying and highly developed cultural heritage of the Greeks. A very high percentage of them were quickly assimilated into Islam and Turkish culture.

I understand the reluctance of converts to place much emphasis on culture, especially when that culture is strongly associated with a particular ethnic group or groups they are not personally associated with by birth. But, in the case of the various expressions of Eastern Christianity, from the historical perspective, the strong ethnic roots cannot be minimized.


In my Greek parish, ethnicity and our strong Greek School are evangelistic tools for reaching out to Greeks who are alienated from Christianity but have strong Greek identities and insist their children receive a Greek education.

It works!

>>>Like baptism and chrismation, it may well be indeliable. I am not talking aboutcontinuing to make the sign of the cross "backwards" (to me) or any other physical practice.

Nor was I. I was refering to the eastern pheroma/outlook. I firmly believe that if one is born in say a western tradition (whether Catholic or Protestant) and then becomes Eastern Christian (whether Catholic or Orthodox) that s/he can totally and completely leave that patrimony behind. I submit that it is hard, and I will even admit that most do not do it. But some, with the guidance of a spiritual father, by participating in the Divine Services, and by reading such great books as "The Mind of the Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Hierethos (notice I put the reading part last becuase I am not suggesting you could become enculturated simply or primarily by reading) can aquire the Eastern mindset as well as someone who was born into it.


>>>I am sure your Indian friend still understands Indian society and culture in a way in which a non-native never can.

I disagree. I would never say that a native could understand his society in a way that a nonnative NEVER could. If I went to live in India I could become enculturated into Indian society in a way equaling a native. I think the difference here is that while you believe that enculturation happens in youth, I believe that at any age one can become enculturated into a new system.

>>>it is not an issue of totaling up to 100%. A person might well be 100% Latin and 100% Greek.

But a person who was Greek might reject for whatever reason his Greekness and become Latin, and the fact that he is rejecting his Greekness will make it more likely that he will fully adopt his new patrimony.

>>>I think we have to be sensitive to the fact that patrimony means more than just
some canonical transfer like state residency.

I never suggested the such. Did you not closely read my post? I said SOME people may change, and some may not. Plain and simple. It is a hard and arduous process but for someone who is so inclined it CAN be done. That it is not likely I AGREE with you Kurt. But all I'm saying is it can be done and that it does happen.

Your statement that "transritualists" are really biritual layfolk is silly. Biritual implies an active participation in two communities like Fr. Deacon Ed. "Transritualists" on the other hand have moved to another and cease to participate in the first--and I'm referring here to those who adopt fully the eastern outlook.

anastasios

Jennifer wrote:

>>>Kurt, I agree. Those of us who were raised in Roman Catholicism will always be Roman Catholic.

Now I was never Roman Catholic, but I'd like to suggest you speak for yourself only.

>>>For example, they believe in baptism because they have the Augustinian idea of original sin.

Not all. Baptists baptize adults. If they believed in Augustinian ideas of original sin, they would baptize infants. You have just overgeneralized.

>>>Therefore, they are at heart western Christians too.

True, but they are varied.

>>>And therefore share the patrimony of the western Church as opposed to the eastern
Church.

As others have said, there are many Western patrimonies. You do a major disservice by equating them all as equal.

Besides, if I reject Augustinian notions of original sin (which I do) then I no longer have a Western outlook on this topic.


Jeniffer, your discourse on choosing a religion is faulty. PICKY-CHOOSY, yeah, that's American. But the fundamental point of the Gospel is that we receive Christ. I tend to agree with Kurt that if we are evangelized by a group we adopt their outlook. But if someone such as myself on his own looks up a Byzantine Church, checks it out, prays about it, and then converts there, I have done the choosing (or God pushed me). No Byzantine ever evangelized me, but I am still an Eastern Christian.

Your discourse reflects the fact that YOU have not aquired an Eastern mindset (at least you admit it). What you say rejects a Calvinistic notion that we were somehow predisposed and predetermined to be born in this culture, and that our ancestors would have just "accepted" this and not tried to change becasue it is some sort of fatalistic destiny. I would submit that this attitude is not even Christian.

anastasios

Dustin, did you mean to say in your last post that what Jennifer says rejects OR projects a calvinistic notion. If you meant the former I fully agree with you. As I have written American Roman Catholicism has integrated much of Calvinistic and Puritanical ideas. Roman Catholics in Italy, Spain, France etc.. don't think puritanically. I think the bigger difference is between North vs South rather than East vs West. In Europe many of the northern countries adopted Protestantism beginning with Germany. This never took root in the South and many countries are homogenously either Catholic of Orthodox in Southern Europe. I see this as the greater divide rather than East/West. The same is true of North and South America. The Puritan North and the Catholic South. It would make an interesting study.

Vasilli has a good point. The great untold story of evangelization by the Byzantine Catholic Churches in the US is the large anti-clerical element within our ethnic community which was re-evangelized in the post war period.

I think we don't hear about it because we like to have the myth that our community was always extremely devout.

To anastasios, I guess I am being inarticulate. What i meant to suggest is that patrimony is not a zero sum game. One might develop a fully Byzantine patrimony, and still be fully Latin. These are not number that have to add up to 100%. (i.e if one is 20% Latin then can only be 80% Byzantine).

I was also inarticulate as to the Indian example. My point was that your Indian friend who may well be completely Americanized still retains an understanding of Indian society and culture than an American without exposure to Indian society and culture could never have. His Americanization did not result in him having no more understanding of Indian society and culture than a typical American.

But I think you support my point when you note that
I think one cannot say that their is no significance between the outlook of one who has rejected a patrimony and then arduously adopted another and one who was simply received a patrimony as a side effect of evanglization and (for example) never engaged in any act of rejection of the Latin patrimony, just has never been exposed to it.

Moreoever, I think you are right when you state We seem to be in agreement that when this does happen it is exceptional and non-normative.

Lastly, if you think the term "bi-ritual" implies active, concurrent participation in two ritual patrimonies, then yes, it would be an incorrect term for someone who has been inculturated into two patrimonies but is presently practicing only one. I will search for a more precise term that describes this situation.




[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 12-08-2000).]

What of brain chemistry? Unless you can induce a state of amnesia and essentially wipe clean one's life-time experiences (memories) you can never change a person "100%." Isn't that concept a bit ridiculous? Gandhi understood that well.

When westeners came to him seeking to become his disciples, many desired to become "Indian" and cast off their European identity, including their Chrisian religion. Gandhi knew that such a desire was a mere quixotic escapade that was doomed to failure and was psychologically destructive of their personalities. His advice was always to remain what you are in essence (essence is the key word.) But, he encouraged them to grow by accepting his ethical and social philosophy, but adapted to their "essence."


In my Greek parish, our converts are encouraged to do the same. They do not have to become "Greeks" or even "Byzantines" in essence to be faithful Orthodox Christians and "people of integrity" ( Mr. Lauffer's expression). In fact, by remaining true to their personal histories and origins they enhance the legitimacy of Orthodoxy's claim to be a catholic faith receptive of all peoples and cultures. ( BTW: The Romanian Orthodox are quick to point out that they are a Latin people who speak a Romance language. They have felt no need to change their Latin "essence" in order to be 100% Orthodox! Hint..Hint.)


Therefore, I conclude that this issue of to change one's stripes (or try to) or not to is not black or white, but can only be understood in a multifaceted manner. A great deal of attention must be paid to both individuals and national/ethnic groups and their unique circumstances. "One size cannot fit all."

Glory to Jesus Christ.

I�m as �multifaceted� as they come � refugee Tridentine fairly naturalized in my Russian church. (As Stuart says, many who settle in do this.) I don�t pretend I am 100% Byzantine and 0% Latin, however, but I do hold that to live stably in a tradition, that tradition has to dominate in your life. (An argument against biritualism as something normative � you can�t live 100% in one Church a few days a week and 100% in another the rest of the week, �Catholic is Catholic� notwithstanding.) I pray the Rosary nearly every day and have a tiny holy-water stoup in my home, and pray the Angelus fairly regularly (practically daily). These are part of me. (If that little bit makes me �biritual� then, yes, I do �swing both ways� . And I go to the Society of St Pius X once a year for Christmas Midnight Mass, with my missal in hand.) The rest of my religious life, including my customized daily pravilo � maybe about 80%? � is russkyj pravoslavnyj (Russian Orthodox) or at least based on it. In church, in public worship it�s 100% as it should be. (We even worship mostly in Slavonic; I do the hours before Liturgy and sing in the choir in that language, and often practice at home.) These things are an integral part of me too.

Serge the Transritualist Bas***d

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Stephen, no society can be completely without a culture. Our culture is vacuous and insipid but it does exist.

You're correct that western culture is not 'monolithic'. There are many different ways of expressing latin catholic 'spirituality'. However, there is a consistency between the different 'flavors' of western christianity.
Jennifer

<<The Roman Catholic church does not have a single, monolithic relationship to the surrounding non-culture. Which is the �real� latin church: my suburban parish with many young families where people are busy, busy, busy or the nearby Benedictine monastery where my son is educated? Both are certainly Western, but the spiritual lives are wildly different.

Westernism is not this uniform thing that we cannot wash out of our hair. Certainly one who is imbued with the Benedictine way is much closer to the Christian East than is the busy suburbanite. Yes, the East is a different beast, but there are many mansions in the Western mindset, some of which are surprisingly close to the East.>>

In Christ,
Steven[/B][/QUOTE]

Jeff, of course it's western. I'm a western Catholic born and bred in western culture. I can't be anything other than what I am.

You have completely misunderstood my argument. Puritanism is a the philosophical descendent (in a perverted form) of western catholicism. It was formed in a culture that was based in a large part upon the latin Catholic Medieval thought. A Puritan would relate much better to a Roman Catholic than to an Orthodox Christian because the Puritan and the Roman Catholic would share a more similar world-view (Augustinian for the most part).

Furthermore, culture is absolutely definitive. The Church always hopes that people will embrace catholicism. However, the Church evangelizes them in a way that is consistent with their culture because she does not believe that any culture (even if pagan) is inherently evil or bad.

With that said, we would expect Roman Catholicism to be expressed differently in America than it would be in Europe.

Jennifer

<<B]Jennifer, your in depth sociological analysis is in itself very western. If we take your analysis to its logical conclusion we should all become Puritan, because that is where American culture is rooted to the core when all the layers are peeled off. The Roman Catholic Church here has even adapted Puritan characteristics. If you have visited Italy, France or Spain you will understand the differences between American Roman Catholicism and Mediterranean Roman Catholicism.>>[/B][/QUOTE]

Jennifer,
Please give some examples of how Latin Catholicism should be expressed differently in America as opposed to Europe.


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