www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Does God love the Byzantine Catholic Church?

A Buddhist...hmmmm....

Dan Lauffer

Dragani,

Given your concern for BC evangelism it would be most helpful if you would post your reflections now that so many others have posted there's. Please, do so.

Dan Lauffer

John, the Church is not the same thing as culture, however there is a very strong link between Church and culture. Roman Catholic theology and spirituality is based in large part on the culture of western Europe. As many here say to western inquirers, westerners can't understand the east. I won't go that far. I think that we can learn to understand one another, however, there will always be differences in approach. For example, the western understanding of "satisfaction" which leads to our understanding of purgatory and indulgences is based on the German legal code.

Non-Christian peoples do not "reject" their cultures when they embrace Christainity. They integrate their native culture with christianity. This is one of the reasons for "inculturation". However, those of us who already belong to a catholic culture do "reject" a part of our culture when we "change" from one rite to another. I as a Roman Catholic have a certain approach to the faith that is unique to Roman Catholics, i.e belief in indulgences and purgatory and original sin, for example. Speaking in general terms, I have more of a 'focus' on the Crucifixion as opposed to the Incarnation. I meditate more on the Passion of Christ than on His Incarnation. How I express my faith on a day to day basis (and not in some abstract, theological way) is "western", for example I meditate on the Passion or gain indulgences. So a "change" to another particular Church would require a rejection of these day to day basic components of my spiritual life. Therefore it is a very significant change. For example, if you were to become a Roman Catholic, would you adopt the western understanding of salvation (with purgatory and indulgences, etc.)?

Culture is not "pure" (see the Holy Fathers' writings on culture). Cultures often overlap. A Polish Catholic might be culturally closer to a Byzantine Catholic than a French Catholic. For example, Jansenism was not prevalent in much of catholic Europe but it was in France and in Ireland because Irish seminiarians were educated in France. However, Roman Catholicism, just as any other particular Church, has a unique spirituality and theology based on the 'philosophy' of the cultures in which it developed.

Jennifer

<<Jennifer, Can you please explain how the Church is your culture and how changing, say from the Latin Church to the Melkite Church, is a changing your culture? I don't understand. Those in the Far East who adapt the Latin Church are surely rejecting their culture, right? To me, what Church I belong to and what culture I was bred in are distinct. I'm not trying to live the life of one in a village in the Carpathian Mountains or in Greece now that I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church. If anything, I am more at home. I grew up in a Polish RC parish and many of the customs and traditions that were observed there are almost seamlessly observed at the parish that I am now a member of. These two cultures (Carpatho-Rusyn and Polish) though they are not the same, do overlap, especially in Church! Who is rejecting their culture in that case?>> John.[/B][/QUOTE]

Should the title of this thread now be:

"Does God "luv" all religions?"


Anyway...Allahu Akbar...y'all!

Dan, I agree. When culture is stable, people do not often move from one culture to another.

<<While I still don't entirely agree with her model I am sobered by its implications. I think her model fits with a stable society like a tribe or a fairly isolated area with only one ethnic group. I don't think the model is quite as useful when one speaks of a universal Church.

Dan, one of the reasons why the Church encourages Protestants to join the Roman Catholic Church as opposed to the other 23 Particular Churches in communion with Rome is that she believes that it is a better "fit". The Church is very concerned that we will adopt the catholic faith but not integrate it into every portion of our lives. This is why the Church feels so strongly that there should be a strong link between faith and culture. Therefore the Church is concerned that a Protestant will decide to join an Eastern Catholic Church but because of their western formation, will be unable to completely adopt eastern Catholic spirituality. This means that things that aren't truly essential, i.e. adopting an eastern philosophical/theological worldview, will be difficult for them and will require significant effort that should be spent on their spiritual life. What is truly difficult (and ultimately most important) for all of us is becoming a christian. If we have to adopt a different philosophical world-view first, are we neglecting the most important work?

<<What sobers me is my own frustration in learning so many things about the wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. >>

I think that one of the signs that our culture is deteriorating is that so many of us are attracted to different cultures than our native culture. Obviously our native culture is unable to meet our spiritual and emotional needs. However, the Holy Father belives that western culture can be salvaged. He believes that there can be a renewal in the western Church and a corresponding renewal in western culture. So instead of telling all Western Catholics to reject their apparently dying culture and adopt a different, healthier culture, the Holy Father tells us to work towards saving our own culture. This is not because he believes that western culture is inherently superior but because he believes that most of us can best be evangelized in a way that is consistent with our native culture. Pope John Paul II, because of his experiences under the Nazis and the Soviets, knows the power of culture. It was Polish culture that saved the Polish Church and it was the Polish Church that saved the Polish culture.


<<It is much more profound than the "higher criticism" models I'm used to. I love the smell, sights, sounds, doctrines and so much more, but I know that much of the pieces are still foreign to me.>>

Dan, your "clumsiness" should not stand in the way of your spiritual life. The Church is concerned that your awkwardness in the eastern tradition (because it is entirely foreign to you) would get in the way of your spiritual life. She believes that you as a Protestant would feel more "comfortable" in the western Church and would have less of a struggle with these kinds of things and would therefore be able to devote more attention and energy towards your spiritual life. Although the Church does not forbid you from choosing the eastern Church instead of the western Church.

<<One more thing. Pray for me as I struggle to discern God's vocation for me. I've been an Elder in the United Methodist Church most of my life. I had thought God might be leading me to the Priesthood, but with all of my clumsiness with the spiritual traditions, perhaps God simply wants me to go the Deacon's route.>>

Jennifer,

I think you vere a little too much in the other extreme from the "pro-choice" viewpoint you take issue with. I am not sure the Catholic Church encourages Protestants to join the Roman Rite. It might recognize without any action on its part almost all Protestants received into full communion are received into the Roman Rite (though I would imagine most Ukrainian speaking Protestants are not) this still presumes potential converts are or should be "reviewing their options". I imagine this is a rare occurance and not one that the Church addresses nor more than the Universal Church ha any official statement on those who elect a patrimomy based on a comparision of the insurance benefits offered by the Knights of Columbus and the GCU.

I find it hard to follow some posts in this thread because of the manner in portions of previous posts are quoted. Nevertheless, the below quote appeared today in a post by Jennifer, and I suppose Jennifer wrote it.
I believe that Dan would feel a certain degree of "clumsiness" in the western Church. I'm sure other converts can attest to this.

As the geographical East becomes increasingly infiltrated with and rapt in western culture, should they abandon the Eastern Church?

What about the cultures that existed before western Europeans came to the Americas? Which Tradition/Church ought they have embraced (for those who did convert)?

While culture and the Church do not operate without any overlapping, it is presumptuous to suggest that the western Church belongs to today's "West" and the eastern Church belongs to today's "East."

If anyone hasn't noticed, much of the western tradition is entirely foreign to western-practicing, western-residing Catholics. The same applies to the eastern tradition for many eastern-practicing, western-residing Catholics.

[This message has been edited by Kelly (edited 12-12-2000).]

CnaBa Iucycy Xpucmy!

When culture is stable, people do not often move from one culture to another.

True. A common exception is intermarriage. And here is something else worth discussing: is the traditional way (encoded in Roman canon law - the 1917 code?) where the woman gives up her Church for her husband�s right or wrong? I�ll acknowledge that in the past this was done in a way unfair to the woman (yes, �sexist�); there seemed to be no provision for the man choosing his new wife�s Church but AFAIK today that can be done fairly easily.

Which leads to another question, similar to the problems of ecumenical or interfaith marriages: in which Church are the kids raised in a two-Church family? The old-fashioned canonical answer was the father�s won out... and I�ve read it could break down even more by sex, so the sons shared Dad�s Church while the daughters went with Mom. Referring back to the non-normativeness of biritualism and the �more than 50% rule�, is shuttling family between two Churches all the time really desirable? Yes, expose the family to both, but one can only really belong to one of them. Again, the more-than-50% thing. Unity in a marriage and family do matter; how this is worked out in practice is I think invariably messy, unless as in Anthony�s happy case, both people in the couple fall in love with one Church and commit to it.

I think that one of the signs that our culture is deteriorating is that so many of us are attracted to different cultures than our native culture. Obviously our native culture is unable to meet our spiritual and emotional needs.

Agreed.

However, the Holy Father belives that western culture can be salvaged.

As you know, I don�t completely write off the West but do agree with Orthodox critics that somewhere along the line, and long before the Vatican II d�b�cle, the Western train got off track, causing today�s problems.

Therefore the Church is concerned that a Protestant will decide to join an Eastern Catholic Church but because of their western formation, will be unable to completely adopt eastern Catholic spirituality.

As you said before, cultures are not �pure�. My priest, who once lived in Palestine, says anyone believing in �pure� Byzantine practice would be shocked and disabused of this notion over there, where some Orthodox churches (convent chapels!) have lace and Orthodox people have Sacred Heart pictures.

Again, my answer to what you say above is, �So what if it�s not completely adopted? Remember, more than 50%. If the convert adopts 70, 80, 90%, is s/he any less Eastern than Yussuf the born Orthodox with a Sacred Heart picture in his house?

Compared to the great deal of harm that can come from trying to adopt the mindset and practice of your typical Novus Ordo establishment, it�s worth the extra effort (as you say) for some people to Byzantinize.

Kurt commented:

I think you veer a little too much in the other extreme from the "pro-choice" viewpoint you take issue with.

I tend to agree.

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>
Now with a page on Anglo-Catholicism: look for the highlighted words �Anglo-Catholic� in the Links part of the Faith page.

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 12-12-2000).]

Friends,

I think this is the best thread in which I've ever been a part.

Jennifer,

I respect your insights greatly. In fact Father Loya alluded to the tendency of the Pope to encourage Protestants converts to go through the Western branch of the Church and Orthodox converts to go to the Eastern branch. This has been an issue that he has questioned me closely on and has conversed with friends in Rome concerning.

In every case both he and I are fairly certain that I have actually more in common with the East than with the West. Is it because Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was greatly influenced by the Orthodox Church? Is it because of my love for artistic beauty? Is it because my long graduate training was in Patristics? I don't know.

I do know that it has been relatively easy to appreciate the Incarnation as a major focus in my devotional life. I do know that I have picked up the music of the East rather easily, though having never been exposed to it before. In fact I'm singing the liturgy much more readily than I ever could the tunes of the Protestant Church.

I think I will relax and enjoy the ride and see what happens.

Dan Lauffer

Rusnak,

Meth Imon O Theos

I just had the great priviledge of taking a brief tour of your web site. It is wonderful! I shall return tomorrow and will recommend it to the brethren of St. Demetrios.

I especially and truly appreciate your section on His Imperial Majesty, The Blessed Constantine, Emperor of Romans and Defender of the True Faith,Martyr, and Witness to the United Church. Those of us who are Orthodox must reflect on the fact that our great Emperor-Martyr was a United Greek. And even while we retain our great admiration for St. Mark of Ephesus, that in no way prevents us from admiring the great courage of Blessed Constantine. None of us can possibly have all the answers, a point that both St.Mark of Ephesus and Blessed Constantine are now well aware of!

I appreciate your work and especially your links to the much maligned Hellenic Catholic Church---a tiny fraternity rich in good works. ( They have an excellent hospital in Athens.) They teach us (Orthodox) humility.I hope to see more Greek topics--Catholic or Orthodox.


BTW: Most of our converts come to us through intermarriage. We evangelize through our Greek School and we reach out to the non-ethnics. Dichotomous thinking, as applied to evangelism in our parish, would be disasterous. Evangelism requires meeting the real needs of the evangelized and excludes a "one size fits all" mentality that is based on a dogmatic mindset that is divorced from reality. Orthodoxy shall survive by being both ethnic AND non-ethnic. Insisting on an "either/or" scheme shows a real lack of imagination. Makes sense to me!

Jennifer wrote:

John, the Church is not the same thing as culture, however there is a very strong link between Church and culture. Roman Catholic theology and spirituality is based in large part on the culture of western Europe. As many here say to western inquirers, westerners can't understand the east. I won't go that far. I think that we can learn to understand one another, however, there will always be differences in approach. For example, the western understanding of "satisfaction" which leads to our understanding of purgatory and indulgences is based on the German legal code.
Non-Christian peoples do not "reject" their cultures when they embrace Christainity. They integrate their native culture with christianity. This is one of the reasons for "inculturation". However, those of us who already belong to a catholic culture do "reject" a part of our culture when we "change" from one rite to another. I as a Roman Catholic have a certain approach to the faith that is unique to Roman Catholics, i.e belief in indulgences and purgatory and original sin, for example. Speaking in general terms, I have more of a 'focus' on the Crucifixion as opposed to the Incarnation. I meditate more on the Passion of Christ than on His Incarnation. How I express my faith on a day to day basis (and not in some abstract, theological way) is "western", for example I meditate on the Passion or gain indulgences. So a "change" to another particular Church would require a rejection of these day to day basic components of my spiritual life. Therefore it is a very significant change. For example, if you were to become a Roman Catholic, would you adopt the western understanding of salvation (with purgatory and indulgences, etc.)?

Culture is not "pure" (see the Holy Fathers' writings on culture). Cultures often overlap. A Polish Catholic might be culturally closer to a Byzantine Catholic than a French Catholic. For example, Jansenism was not prevalent in much of catholic Europe but it was in France and in Ireland because Irish seminiarians were educated in France. However, Roman Catholicism, just as any other particular Church, has a unique spirituality and theology based on the 'philosophy' of the cultures in which it developed.


Jennifer, I'm still confused. I don't feel that I live in a Catholic culture, either Eastern or Western. American culture today is barely Christian, let alone Catholic. Changing from the use of one rite to that of another has had little or no bearing on the culture in which I live. I never really had any attachement to the rosary or thought of what indulgences I might be gaining when I attended a Roman Catholic church, those things are not, I my opinion, essentials to living a life of faith as Roman Catholic or any Catholic. They are private and personal devotions that can be used or not used. Although the Rosary or Stations are sometimes "said" publically, they are non-liturgical or para liturgical. I still meditate on the passion or venerate the cross--more so now than when I was a Roman Catholic. I don't really feel as though I've rejected anything, how could I reject things that I did not use to begin with? I've heard said that to be a Christian is being counter-cultural anyway. The truth is, I'm happy to be where I'm at. I'm at peace with myself and close to God. I still live in a western culture but how I express my faith is in an eastern manner. I don't believe that they are at odds. Thanks!

Orthodoxy shall survive by being both ethnic AND non-ethnic. Insisting on an "either/or" scheme shows a real lack of imagination. Makes sense to me!

Me too!

Thanks for visiting the site. Looking forward to your future visits and those of the St Demetrios people soon.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Rusnak,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Have you seen the following sites?

Russian Orthodox(in Russian.)

www.pms.orthodoxy.ru/light/light.htm [pms.orthodoxy.ru]

Orthodox Church of Northern Ireland:
www.nireland.com/orthodoxy/HolyTrinity/ [nireland.com]
www.nireland.com/orthodoxy/StColmans/ [nireland.com]

Glory to Him forever!

<b><font color=blue>Agreed!! A very good thread and lively discussion. Since I am soon to be joining the BCC from Protestantism, I think I might like to contribute an idea as to why I went East instead of West.

Initially, when I visited the Orthodox church across the street, there was something in Orthodox worship which I found both beautiful and compelling, even though it was indeed another culture. (ROCOR) I was not so much concerned about the cultural differences, rather, what was appealing was the my Lord was being worshipped in a form I found to be highly reverent and totally different from the standard Western Evangelical dog-and-pony show I had seen. I knew this reverence was correct worship.

After further consideration, wrestling with the issue of our Holy Father and the differences between East and West, I believed it was important for me to learn the Eastern form of spirituality because I was already steeped in the more legal and judicial Western form. Needing to be in subjection to the Holy Father, I discovered the great secret here in America -- the Byzantine Church. There seems to be more emphasis on the living of the life as opposed to the rules of the life. I knew that I had a firm basis in rules. That was not what I needed. I needed a different kind of spirituality which would help me step out of myself and into Christ. The East offers me this and I am willing to do the hard and long work of paradigm shift to learn of Christ in a way I have not known Him thus far.

And finally, when I was in a Divine Liturgy one morning, I sensed the Lord was leading me to the BCC. There was a real sense from within that this is where I am supposed to be and I have felt at home ever since. And, yes, I too am finding the Liturgy easy to sing. I have even been allowed to sing with the choir, which I consider a distinct honor and have told our cantor that I would like to study for reader and cantor backup under his tuteledge.

One other thing -- I have made some wonderful friendships since starting to attend the Church. I expect it to be, at least for me and where I am coming from, a beautiful fit for me and as I am taught of it over the rest of my lifetime, it will be a real means of drawing close to the Lord. This is not to say that there isn't a genuine spirituality in the West, it's just that from where I am at now, I honestly believe Eastern spirituality will be the most helpful to me.

Brother Catechumen Ed

Brother Ed,

I dunno if you are in Eastern PA or Western, but if you are serious about learning the ins & outs of the Liturgy & how to lead it, and are within whatever you consider to be reasonable driving distance of Pittsburgh, you might consider attending the Metropolitan Cantor Institute next year. It happens at the Seminary. (There's only one session left this academic year - in March.)

Best,


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com