www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Top 100 Christian Forums

Originally posted by Churchwork:
I agree, we should not attack the webmaster or the owners of this forum, but since no one is attacking the webmaster in this conversation why does such a statement need to be brought up, unless one is actually bearing false witness acting like the false accuser in so doing. Do you see how sneaky the flesh is? My recommendation is take a moment, listen to a song, and let God by His grace soften your spirit.

Originally posted by Churchwork:
It is your right to murder someone, which means you can go do it and get away with it, but it does not make it right.

A forum owner has a privelege to serve others, not to be commended for not banning someone. That is ridiculous. This forum is killing my brain cells.

Bye.

Troy wrote:
Basis is Biblical locality, and authority is the authority of the Holy Spirit testifying in my spirit in agreement with the Word of God.

Troy wrote:
Yes, these things are obvious, but who was the real author? Holy Spirit.

Troy wrote:
No. I accept the Word of God for over and over again it has proven itself to me in complete agreement in 66 books of the Bible. That is why, not the reason you state. You ought not to bear false witness for your flesh, nor make men of history your idols.

I wrote:
You accept them because they were handed on to you. This means that you accept the Canon of the New Testament because of Holy Tradition, because Holy Tradition is what is handed on to us from those who were in the faith before us.

Troy wrote:
This then would be your false conclusion from the above false premise. I accept the canon because the the Holy Spirit in my spirit agrees that it is true.

Troy wrote:
Yet God wants you to see something you have blinded yourself and man has blinded himself to for too long. Biblical locality. I trust you know what I mean. If you don't, begin now.

Troy wrote:
I do not accept the authority of the church in creating the Bible, that is your assumption. The church did not create the Bible, the church was given the Word of God, it was not the creator as you need to believe. The Holy Spirit made it happen, not men of the church. What you belong to is a warped and twisted misalignment and a loss on God's will. But God is working through Biblical locality and has been every century however sparse which will come to its fullest fruition in the coming millennial kingdom and the new earth after that. I know this is all quite hard for you to take right now, but with prayer you will come to see if you are a believer and dealt with by the cross.

Troy wrote:
The Bible comes by the Holy Spirit whom God the Father gave to us through the Son.

Troy wrote:
As proven in the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit. ... You know in your intuitive conscience this is true. The question is, when and if you are going to do something about it, heeding your conscience. God is waiting.

Which Church Should I Join?

By Watchman Nee

Additional Comments by Troy Brooks



It is necessary to join the church, but which church should I join? Because of the many different churches existing today, this matter creates a very real problem. Over the two thousand years of church history, various churches have been raised up at different times. This we may call the cause of time. Then as churches have been formed in different areas, area has become a cause. Also, with the raising up of different human instruments used in the planting of churches, people have become a cause. In addition to these three causes of time, area, and person, there is further the cause of emphasis on a particular truth in the Bible. The Word of God contains so many aspects of truth that people tend to establish churches based on one special truth. Maybe in a certain area there arises a special need and someone comes forth with a particular emphasis on one aspect of truth; consequently a different church is organized. The result is that that particular emphasis may become another cause of dissent. Based on the various conditions mentioned above, many churches have been produced. The number of churches in the world today exceeds fifteen hundred. These are all well-organized and approved. They are not reckoned according to locality but according to a system. Brethren, when we advise believers to join the church, we are faced with the formidable task of choosing one from among fifteen hundred churches. Let us consider this matter before God. Is there a way Out of the confusion? We believe there is, for the Word of God still remains with us. We can search the Scriptures and find out what God has to say about this. Indeed, God�s Word has already revealed His appointed way as to which church we ought to join. There is no need for us to spend much time investigating and inquiring into the many different churches. If we had to analyze and research all of them, we would probably never in our lifetime be able to solve the problem because we have neither the strength nor facility to do it. Yet God has not left us in the dark. The Bible clearly indicates to us the way we should follow.



God�s Way Is the Local Church (to clarify, a "biblical city" in scope, not necessarily a modern day city)



The Bible gives the simplest guideline concerning the church. It is clear and unconfused. If we read the beginning verses of the epistles, the Acts, and the first chapter of Revelation, we meet such names as "the church which was in Jerusalem" (Acts 8:1), "the church of God which is at Corinth" (1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1), and "the seven churches that are in Asia" (Rev. 1:4), which are the church in Ephesus, the church in Smyrna, the church in Pergamum, the church in Thyatira, the church in Sardis, the church in Philadelphia, and the church in Laodicea (Rev. 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14). In the Bible the churches are divided, but what makes the division? One and only one rule divides the church. Anyone can see the answer, for it is crystal clear. The Bible permits the church to be divided solely on the ground of locality. Corinth is a city, so are Ephesus, Colosse, Rome and Philippi. All the churches are divided wholly according to locality. In a word, churches can only be divided according to locality, not by any other factor. A locality, a city, is the unit. As Corinth, Ephesus, and Colosse are all cities, so the boundary of the church is the city. Locality constitutes the basic unit. The smallest church takes a locality as its unit; so does the biggest church. Anything smaller than a locality may not be considered a church, nor can it be so recognized if it is bigger than a locality (prevents denominations). This is very clear in I Corinthians 1. There it mentions the church which is in Corinth. When some people in the church at Corinth specify themselves as of Cephas, of Paul, of Apollos, and of Christ, they divide the church into four parts. This makes the church too small, so Paul chides them for their divisions. Paul is good, Apollos is good, Cephas is good, but it is not good to divide according to these men. The church may be divided only according to locality, not according to the apostles. Division according to the apostles is condemned by the Bible as being divisions in the flesh. Such division results in sects. However, neither should the scope of the church exceed that of a locality. In reading the Bible, we find "the churches of Galatia" (Gal. 1:2), "the churches of Asia" (1 Cor. 16:19; see also Rev. 1:4), and "the churches throughout all Judea" (Acts 9:31 Authorized Version). There were many churches in Judea, in Galatia, and in Asia; hence in Acts they were called the churches in Judea, in Galatians the churches in Galatia, and in Revelation the churches in Asia. Judea was originally a nation, but at that time it had become a Roman province. The various churches in the different localities of that province could not be combined to form one church, so the record in Acts terms them the churches throughout Judea. Galatia was also a Roman province, not just a city. There were a number of churches in that place too; consequently the plural of the word "church" was used to designate the churches in Galatia. These churches were not named "The Church in Galatia," thus showing that the church should not be bigger in boundary than a locality. In the same vein, the churches in Asia were mentioned not in the singular but in the plural form. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea were seven localities in Asia. They were not united together as one big church; rather they remained seven churches. It is quite clear from the Bible that a church may be designated only by the name of the locality in which it is located (within a modern-day city there are many communities, and each may go by a different name, and are of manageable sizes for fellowship. Each fellowship may be of a hundred people, a miniature of the total city, and the city is a miniature of the new city). It should not be named according to a man or doctrine or system or history. No distinction is allowed on the basis of men, of nations, or of doctrines. The Word of God permits only the distinction of locality. Wherever one sojourns, he belongs to the church in that locality. To change his church affiliation, he has to move somewhere else. God recognizes the distinction of locality alone; He will not justify any other basis.



How We Join the Church



Finally, let us ask the question�how do we join the church? Never once in the Bible do we find the phrase �join the church." It cannot be found in Acts nor is it seen in the epistles. Why? Because no one can join the church. To join means that one is still outside. Can an ear decide to join my body? No, if it is in my body, it is already joined. If it is not already in my body, then there is no way for it to join. We do not join the church. Rather, we are already in the church and therefore are joined to one another. When, by the mercy of God, a man is convicted of his sin and through the precious blood is redeemed and forgiven and receives new life, he is not only regenerated through resurrection life but is also put into the church by the power of God. It is God who has put him in; thus he already is in the church. He is an insider, so he has no need of joining. Many think of joining the church. Let it be known, however, that whatever can be joined is not the real thing. One cannot join the true church of God even if he would like to. If he is of the Lord, born of the Holy Spirit, then he is already in the church and has no need to join it. Therefore it is neither necessary nor possible to join the church. No one can enter into the church by joining it; those who are already in do not need to join. The very desire to join reveals the fact that one is still on the outside. The church is so special that it cannot be joined. The determining factor is whether one is born of God. If one is born of God, he is already in; if he is not born of God, there is no way to join. Is not this corporate body wonderful? It cannot be joined by signing a decision card or by taking a test. All who are born of God are already in the church; therefore they have no need to join it. Then why do we persuade you to join the church? We are only borrowing this term for the sake of convenience. You who have believed in the Lord are already in the church, but your brothers and sisters in the church may not know you. You have believed, but the brethren may not know it. You are redeemed, yet the church may not be aware of it. Since belief is something in the heart, it may not be known to others. For this reason we must seek fellowship, just as Paul sought to receive the right hand of fellowship from those in the church at Jerusalem (Gal. 2:9). We must go to the church, telling them that we too are Christians and asking them therefore to receive us as such. Since men are limited in knowledge, they need to be told that we are brothers and sisters in order that they may receive us. This is not, however, the same thing as the popular sense of joining the church. Since my father is a Chinese, I do not need to be naturalized to be a Chinese. But upon becoming a believer, yet unknown to the church, I should go to the church and ask to be recognized and to be given fellowship. If the brethren find out that I am indeed one of them, that I am a true believer, they then will give me the fellowship I seek. This is the true sense of joining the church. You who are already in Christ should learn to seek the fellowship of the children of God. With this fellowship of the body you may serve God well. If you as young believers can see this light, you will move a step forward in your spiritual path. Thank God for His mercy.



"In 1 Cor. 14.23 we read of 'the whole church....assembled together'. What church is this? Obviously, the local church, for the Church universal cannot gather together in one locality. It was in the local church that the brethren exercised their spiritual gifts." (p.27, The Church and the Work, Vol. 2, Rethinking the Work - CFP).



How extensive is the boarder of a local assembly? How large a place is required to form a local assembly (not decided by elders but it is dependant on the governmental boundaries of a city already set)? Please note that the Bible never divides the Church according to region, nor does it even place several churches under a regional church. Although there are several churches in Asia being mentioned in Revelation, we do not find in God�s Word that Ephesus or Philadelphia had been chosen to control the other six churches. We only see seven churches represented by seven golden lampstands. In the Old Testament record there is mentioned the one lampstand with seven branches; but here in Revelation are seven lampstands - not one with seven branches but seven lampstands representing seven separate churches, each emitting light and bearing responsibility directly to Christ (ch. 4 The boundary of a Local Assembly p. 97)



The Bible usually takes a (biblical) city, the smallest executive governmental area, as the boundary of a local assembly. A local assembly is the unit of the Church in God�s word (ibid. p. 98)



Concerning the boarder of a local assembly, in the New Testament God makes the city to be its boundary. So that the maximum sphere of a local assembly is a city and nothing larger than a city. In the biblical record, there is no church that controls a region, a province, or a country. The city always marks the limit of the church. A city was originally the aggregate of people who lived in the same locality. Let us realize that due to today�s complicated life we have such divisions as country, township, village, and so forth. In the olden days, wherever the people congregated and live and were protected - that was considered a city (Gen. 4:7) (ibid. p. 102, The Boarder of a Local Assembly)



(Other sub-headings to this chapter of The Church and the Work include, Dividing by City Line, How to Meet Separately in One City, and, Concerning City Limits and Suburbs. Suburbs and even smaller units are the true localities, based on community, to prevent denominational locality).



That cities were the boundaries of churches in the apostolic days is evident from the fact that on the one hand Paul and Barnabas "appointed . . . for them elders in every church" (Acts 14:23), and on the other hand Paul instructed Titus to "appoint elders in every (biblical) city" (Titus 1:5).



In the Word of God we see no church that extends beyond the area of a city, nor do we find any church which does not cover the entire area. Any place is qualified to be a unit for the founding of a church which is a place where people group together to live, a place with an independent name, and a place which is the smallest political unit. Such a place is a scriptural "city" and is the boundary of a local church (large cities, such as Rome with a million people were not considered church locality since there is no mention of the church in Rome, nor could this many fellowship together in one single meeting place. Instead there is only reference to the "saints in Rome", thus proving a modern day city is to large to be considered a biblical city in many cases, and must be broken down further as in the case of London which also must be divided according to its governmental boundaries. Jerusalem, though a large city of as many as 40,000 people at the time of Christ, was a biblical city, and the believers there met in several groups for ease of fellowship instead of one place). While small cities such as Iconium and Troas are likewise units.



Questions will naturally arise concerning large cities such as London. Do they reckon one "unit-locality," or more than one? London is clearly not a "city" in the scriptural sense of the term and it cannot therefore be regarded as a unit. Even people living in London talk about going "into the city" or "into the town," which reveals the fact that in their thinking "London" and "the city" are not synonymous. The political and postal authorities, as well as the man on the street, regard London as more than one unit. They divide it respectively into boroughs and postal districts. What they regard as an administrative unit, we may well regard as a church unit. (page 48 The Normal Christian Church Life, International Students, Inc.)



Summary

Places of fellowship of 50 to a 100 people could be achieved within local walking �ground�. Watchman Nee never legalized locality, but used it as a point of biblical reference for identifying christendom denominations going beyond the boundary of the church. True church locality should include all of its meeting places in a locality. Each group that meets may be derived from those living in a radius of a couple miles. And immediately next to this assembly is another place of meeting, that goes by another name, and so on, and so forth, yet each follows under the church of the church unit they are comprising. We can thus see that a population beyond about about 3000 to 5000 is too large for gathering because there is no facilities, nor is it spiritually viable in getting to know people. It would take a lifetime to know the people that would be needed to fill a stadium. The purpose of this principle of locality is that anything larger than a locality is susceptible to being given into denominations, based on some doctrine which is divisive and would compromise God�s Word. This divisiveness would not be the church as laid out in the Scriptures, no matter how much someone tries to convince you that this is God's way.