www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Christians and Circumcision revisited

Friends in Christ,

Back in April we had an interesting thread on circumcision. I wanted to know if there were any official ecclesiastical (east or west) statements on the matter, since my son was to be born soon. I think I may have found some statements the matter.

Apparently in the context of the Ecumenical Council of Florence (1442) Pope Eugene IV issued a Papal Bull entitled, "Bull of Union with the Copts" (AD 1442) which stated that Christians who practice circumcision risk loss of eternal salvation. Here is a quote from the Bull:

"Therefore it [the Church] denounces all who after that time [time of evangelization] observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

You can read more in this article on Rome and circumcision:
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/catholic/

It goes on to say that the Roman Church condemns all non-therapeutic aputations and mutilations (Catholic Catechism paragraph 2297), and that the American Medical Association defines neonatal circumcision as a "non-therapeutic" surgical procedure. Thus circumcision is a non-therapeutic aputation and is condemned by the Church.

I'm sure these two arguments may stir up the pot a bit.

I'll have all know that my son was born June 25, weight 7lbs 11oz and is perfectly healthy and beautiful. We named him Gabriel William Marshall. Please pray for him as he approaches the font of regeneration. Oh, and one more thing, he is not circumcised!

yours in Christ,
Marshall

How wonderful

Congratulations on your son, and I hope he did not give his Mum too hard a time.

When is his Baptism to be ?

May Our Blessed Lady, Mary ever Virgin, keep little Gabriel and his parents in Her most tender care. May She bring all to Her most Wonderful Son

Angela

Christians are no longer bound by the ritual laws of the Old Testament, as was made clear in St. Peter's vision. Circumcision, as part of a 'faith' commitment, is no longer in the cards.

However, in some communities, there are long-standing rituals (perhaps even circumcision among the Copts?) that are part of the ethnic and cultural patrimony of a Church. These should be legitimately honored.

As for the AMA, they have come out against infant circumcision as unnecessary surgery. They may well be right, although I believe that the Infectious Diseases Society of America has said that according to research, there is less danger of certain diseases among the circumcised than among those who are not. (There is a similar debate about tonsillectomy.)

Ultimately, it seems that the 'natural body' is the way God made it and the less we screw around with it, the better. For religious purposes, there appears to be no reason to do circumcision and no legitimate grounds to do for Christians (unless it is part of a particular cultural patrimony).

May your son enjoy many years in health and happiness!

Blessings!

Well, me and Dr. John will agree on something for once!

I know there are few Greeks who are ever circumcised - the last blood to be spilled as a sacrifice was Jesus.

Circumcision? Ouch.

Dear Marshall,

That is a cutting comment . . .

The entire Alexandrian family of Churches, the Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans (who know have their own Patriarchate) and the Nubians practice circumcision.

They do this as a memorial in honour of the Old Covenant, and so it is more than simply a cultural practice, but one that is intertwined with the spirituality of the Alexandrian Church.

They do not, of course, believe it necessary for salvation.

But these Churches link the Old Testament with the New in a way that no other family of Churches do as do the Assyrians.

The Ethiopians especially practice so much of ancient Judaism, including blowing the shofar on Easter, Christmas and Pentecost and venerating Arks of the Covenant (named for Saints).

The issue is a non-issue between the Churches today.

I once visited a friend who is a Priest and who was blessing three SUV's with Holy Water.

I simply had to ask him how he would bless cars if he were a Rabbi.

When he said he didn't know, I told him he would probably have to take a knife and scrape the tail-pipes.

He told me my sense of humour was "interesting."

Alex

Alex,

That's an old, old joke ("so he cut off two inches of tailpipe," badumdum!).


Dr. John,

Yes, the incidence of some diseases is less among circumcised males. But as in toxicology, where "the dose makes the poison" one must look a bit more closely at what we are examining. Penile cancer is almost exclusively found amongst uncircumcized males. But even in this population, it's SOOOOOOOO rare that a reduction in the "risk" for it only makes the news when folks don't look at the number of digits behind the decimal point.

I've always figured that aside from the covenant folks, if God wanted boys & men without foreskins, He would have simply created a "sports model."


Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor, sinner & mom to two untrimmed boys
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

Yes, but that's the fun of telling jokes to priests and seminarians who have lived sheltered lives!

Anything makes them laugh!

Alex

Hey folks I appreciate the cutting remarks but how about congratulating the proud Father , not to mention young Gabriel's mum.

A stunned Angela

Dear Angela,

Ditto! Congratulations to the proud Father and Mother of Gabriel!

As for the cutting business, if you think YOU'RE stunned . . .



Alex

Dear Sister Sharon, thanks for your comments. (Sports Model? Yikes!!!!)

I was recently summoned to (yet another) CDC meeting about this whole schmear.

The fact is that among uncircumcised males, the STD rates are higher -- not just for penile cancer. (Ouch!) So: to snip or not to snip; that is the question. Film at 11.

Blessings!!!

Yes indeed, Marshall, congratulations to you & your wife! Children are a gift from God, as well as being extremely endearing little loci of chaos.

Don't know if she is breastfeeding. If she is, she might like to know that there are some lovely illustration in statuary, iconography and Western religious art of the Mother of God nursing her infant Son.

Best,

Sharon

Shaorn Mech, SFO
Cantor, sinner & nursing mama
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Mother Sharon,

You do really keep abreast of things . . .

Alex

Alex,

It is a great temptation to tell you to "FReeze, mister, you're facing a pair of loaded 38s," but this is a family show, so I won't.


Dr. John,

I think it's a red herring. STDs do not arise spontaneously (as geese do from barnacles) amongst circumcised or uncircumcised men, women or goats. STDs are transmitted via specific behaviors, and circumcision or its lack may be related to the rate of subsequent infection. Even if it is related, is it causative? I am reminded of a college acquaintance who was terribly impressed that being Seventh Day Adventist was associated with a lower incidence of heart disease. He didn't know they were all vegetarians. What else is going on here? Do the statistics carry through to the populations in Europe, where most men are intact? I'm not saying it's bad science, it just sounds like it's incomplete.

Sharon

Dear Mother Sharon,

As my old sociology professor used to say, not to have all the possible factors at hand is to really present a half-cocked argument.

Alex