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#6331 04/26/03 01:53 AM
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Dear Administrator,

Thank you for your response. It does clarify your position.

I think that it is possible that the study of the human Genome may alter what we understand to be nature and what causes something to be natural. That study is just beginning. We understand little as of yet.

I wonder if what we learn in biology and other natural sciences and in the social sciences as well might change what the church teaches. The primitive study of astronomy did help the church to change what she taught about the nature of the universe. Do you think that what we learn from the genome and other studies of humans will enable our theologians and religious teachers to look at what God is saying in that forum and integrate it with our theologies?

Such is not impossible, it seems to me. Is it not possible that as we learn about such things, how we think about the way that God intends His Law of Love to be applied in the lives of His children will be changed and adapted further?

I think that Alex makes a good point when he suggests that the last word on some rules about morality might not have been spoken. Isn't it possible that some rules might be changed as our understanding of what God's world and His creatures are really like becomes clearer?

I am not disagreeing with the teaching of the Church. I am asking if it is not possible that, as our understanding and knowledge of God's works through the physical and social sciences grows, our understanding of how His law applies might grow also?

Our notion of Natural Law is basically derived from the ethics of a philosopher who was trying to understand nature with the tools at his disposal. We do no take his cosmology at face value today. Yet it was part and parcel of Christian thought for many centuries.

Perhaps the burgeoning study of how human nature works (physically, psychologically, socially, theologically, etc.,) will enable us to understand differently what the Natural Law that God has written on our hearts really is more thoroughly. If so, perhaps our understanding of what is moral or immoral will become clearer also.

Thanks for hearing me out. What do you think?

Steve

#6332 04/26/03 02:06 AM
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You are very talented at distorting the truth.
I think that is uncalled for.

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I know very well from experience that if I answer your questions from your most recent post you will either ignore mine or answer questions other than those I have asked.
Try me.

Regarding my statement about a Supreme Court decision establishing special protection for homosexual sexual activity, I never suggested that should the court [act in] overturning the Texas statue that it would automatically apply to other forms of deviant immoral sexual behavior. [/quote]

I am glad we agree.

Quote
I was clear in stating that it would become very difficult for the courts not to extend such special protection to all forms of deviant immoral sexual behavior.
A question of jurisprudence, not a matter of Christian ethics. Many scholars of the law do not share your analysis.

Quote
At any rate, since you profess to be an Orthodox Christian ...
As an Orthodox Christian, my instruction does not come from the non-Orthodox regardless of their claims of learnedness. Thank you anyway.

The laws have been changed that sent gay people to the gallows, or to insane asylems. The remaining 13 states that criminalize gay sexual behavior will soon have thier horrid laws overturned (35 having already done so by legislation). Maryland, New York and New Mexico have recently passed laws for employment non-discrimination, several more states are likely to soon. Police Departments are begining to respond to protect gays from violence and beatings.

And as for me personally, I have made a full physical recovery from the assult I suffered two years ago, and now even have what appear to be natural teeth! God is so good!

Axios

#6333 04/26/03 02:32 AM
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What makes me very uncomfortable is the persistent idea that homosexual and gay people (homosexual=sexual orientation; gay=homosexual people who don't hide their sexual orientation) are seeking 'special protections'.

If the state determines that only 'missionary sex' (to be genteel in description) is acceptable and legal behavior, and that anything else is unacceptable and therefore also illegal, how is it that laws proscribing homosexual 'anything else' and not heterosexual 'anything else' can be seen as anything else but discriminatory?

For those who would wish an equal playing field for everybody (homosexual, bi-sexual or heterosexual) how can desiring this be called asking for 'special protections' for homosexuals?

Christ is Risen!!

#6334 04/26/03 12:22 PM
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Dr John,

I am ALL FOR discriminatory laws when it comes to Homosexuality. By the way it is illegal to engage non-missionary sex (without getting into detail) for straight couples in some states of the union.

To state again you are wrong! You might be in mortal sin for telling people that Homosexual sin is "Ok". I suggest you find a good spiritual advisor.

This is a CATHOLIC forum and your ANTI-CATHOLIC remarks are really not called for.

#6335 04/26/03 01:05 PM
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Christ is Risen!

Axios:

You said: "I'm sorry. A lot of questions have been presented and some in extremely tortured language. Could you restate the more important ones in a simple fashion. No more than three at a time, please."

I have answered your challenge about the wisdom of the state in criminalizing sodomy. Yet you have conveniently ignored it. At the very least, I'd expect you to make the case Andrew Sullivan makes against my definition of homosexual activity as essentially instrumentalizing and therefore disintegrative of the human person.

If you need me to restate it in less nuanced language, I will: sodomy is morally repugnant; any society which permits sodomy risks endangering the common good, because sodomy can never contribute to our understanding that the human person must never be used as a means to any other end (e.g., pleasure).

As for your personal history, which you relate without prompting, I am deeply sorry that such an incident happened and I hope the perpetrator(s) was/were punished.

Lastly, you claim not to listen to non-Orthodox who seek to teach you about Orthodoxy. Well, as an Orthodox Christian, I can tell you that the Church has never countenanced homosexuals who unrepentantly continue to engage in sinful sodomitical acts.

Steve:

Regarding your question about HIV in the third world / sub-Saharan Africa: Based on what I know about the epidemic, it is generally a consequence of married men carrying on extramarital affairs and then infecting their spouses. Laws against adultery -- which I believe should exist and should be enforced -- might alleviate the problem, no? I wouldn't make the jump to outlawing heterosexual intercourse but would make criminal heterosexual and homosexual intercourse outside of marriage.

Dr. John:

I think you make a good point, which is why anti-homosexual sodomy laws are more suspect constitutionally than straightforward anti-sodomy laws.

Nonetheless, a case can be made for the distinction between the two, along the lines of the state's interest in encouraging reproduction, i.e. heterosexual sodomy may eventually lead to heterosexual intercourse, which may lead to conception. Need I point out that homosexual sodomy can never constitute foreplay for reproductive-type acts?

Johann:

Dr. John NEVER said homosexual activity was not a sin. He is simply questioning the wisdom of the state in making such a sin the subject of law.

It is apparent that you fail to appreciate this distinction.

So, would you be okay if I, as an Orthodox Christian, petitioned the state to make fasting mandatory? What about attendance at Vespers? What about using leavened bread in the Eucharist?

Poor examples, but I hope you get my point.

I fear that the distortions of Axios and the knee-jerk self-righteousness of Johann are much too commonplace in the larger societal debate over this issue. It does not bode well for a civil -- and just -- resolution.

In Christ,
Theophilos

#6336 04/26/03 04:39 PM
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This issue will be debated until homosexuality has official sanction and support of the Church for their lifestyle and activities. But the question "Where are the bishops?" is a valid one since this issue has affected the livelihood of our churches. We need to hear official statements from our bishops on this soon. Commenting on the war and economics is easy, guiding a church through sensitive issues takes courage, something we rarely see these days.

My own crystallization of my personal thoughts and ethics came when one BC priest (I will not state who) told me years ago that 'genital contact' between two males is a valid expression of love. Those were his own words, words I can never forget. I reported this conversation to his superiors, but my alarmed concern was fluffed off with a form of defensive listening and chuckles. I later heard he got transferred to work with school children in another state. Call it the turkey dance. The man was interested in only one thing: genital contact. Looking back now, I remember how he invited one of my classmates to sleep with him when we visited. This classmate was also caught getting a sexual favor in his dorm room at the seminary. I know. I was the one who walked in on them when his door was slightly opened. It was sick. They were all sick. Paul's letter to the Romans came to mind when the priest I mentioned above tried to promote his idea and lifestyle similar to Paul's conclusion of chapter one in Romans. This is one of the many experiences I had. What was true for Paul nearly 2,000 years ago is true for us today. Many have given up natural intercourse and men have burned with lust for one another.

Joe

#6337 04/26/03 05:46 PM
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I have answered your challenge about the wisdom of the state in criminalizing sodomy. Yet you have conveniently ignored it.
I am sorry. I have been in church alot this week.

Quote
sodomy is morally repugnant; any society which permits sodomy risks endangering the common good, because sodomy can never contribute to our understanding that the human person must never be used as a means to any other end (e.g., pleasure).
Yet masterbation is not a criminal act.

Quote
As for your personal history, which you relate without prompting, I am deeply sorry that such an incident happened and I hope the perpetrator(s) was/were punished.
They were not and the authorities made it clear that that they were more morally offended by me than them.

They did me harm outside the formal sanction of the civil law while others wish that harm be done to me within the sanction of the civil law. The difference is not over if harm should be done to me, but if it should be carried out by the state or by personal initiative.

Axios

(back to church now; please do not take a non-response as a discourtesy)

#6338 04/26/03 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by J Thur:
This issue will be debated until homosexuality has official sanction and support of the Church for their lifestyle and activities. But the question "Where are the bishops?" is a valid one since this issue has affected the livelihood of our churches. We need to hear official statements from our bishops on this soon. Commenting on the war and economics is easy, guiding a church through sensitive issues takes courage, something we rarely see these days.


Joe
I would not say that commenting on war and economic issues is at all an "easy option" for bishops. It certainly was not for the National Conference of Catholic bishops in the Reagan era when they criticized government policies effects on the poor. They were ROUNDLY criticized by conservative elements within the CHurch. The issue of condemning war will always bring the bishops nothing but grief from people such as William F. Buckley, William Bennett etc. These are NOT easy issues for the bishops to provide leadership on.
Certainly the most sensitive issues are ones dealing with life which does include war, nuclear weapons, the death penalty, abortion etc???

#6339 04/26/03 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Brian:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[qb]Certainly the most sensitive issues are ones dealing with life which does include war, nuclear weapons, the death penalty, abortion etc???
Brian,

Easy in the sense that it is an issue 'out there.' Bishops don't fight wars nor do they make economic decisions that affect people outside their community. They do have responsibility to address problems 'inside' the fold, namely homosexuality and pedophilia.

It is always easy to tell other parents how to raise their children. It is never easy to admit that one's own children are a problem. Call it defensive listening.

We have seen how many church leaders failed miserably in addressing these issues. None of this was a surprise to us who endured seminary life. Unfortunately, the courts are now pointing the finger at their own poor parenting and they are paying for it.

Let's face it: its all about giving permission for some to exchange genital contact between the same sex without the guilt. I remember once after attending a sensitivity seminar at seminary college (I didn't attend our BC seminary) and how all the gays came out of the closet that night as if it was some pride night.

I couldn't take the hand-holding or the occasional surprises walking into another's room finding two men kissing or receiving a bed-side favor.

Despite the lifestyle issue, it was about 'getting it.' Loneliness and the weight of mandatory celibacy were two products of the Latin system of priestly formation that reminded the seminarian of a future as rewarding (in the personal sense) as being locked up in jail. Those who complained about the flirts were branded as 'rugged individualists' or as 'backwards.'

The problem of homosexuality is one where those who attempt to 'get it' do so without sex being a life-giving relationship. It is not prolific.

#6340 04/26/03 08:00 PM
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Steve wrote:
Do you think that what we learn from the genome and other studies of humans will enable our theologians and religious teachers to look at what God is saying in that forum and integrate it with our theologies?
Yes. Such advances in science will assist the Church to better minister to people. Such advances in science cannot change God�s Commandments.

Quote
Steve wrote:
I think that Alex makes a good point when he suggests that the last word on some rules about morality might not have been spoken. Isn't it possible that some rules might be changed as our understanding of what God's world and His creatures are really like becomes clearer?
The Church does not have the authority to change God�s Commandments. The Church can only change its response to sin (which is something completely different). Christ did speak indirectly to this topic when he stated that: �I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town [of people who did not welcome the Apostles sent by Christ to preach the Kingdom of Heaven] (Matthew 10:15). He was stating that the judgment for unbelief would be more severe that the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. He was clearly not giving the Church permission to change God�s Commandments.

--

Quote
Axios wrote:
As an Orthodox Christian, my instruction does not come from the non-Orthodox regardless of their claims of learnedness. Thank you anyway.
Have you read Fr. Thomas�s post in this thread or the link he provided to the OCA website? It is quite clear to anyone who reads that information that there is no difference between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches on this issue since it is part of the apostolic faith. You really do yourself and all of Orthodoxy a disservice by implying that the Orthodox teaching is different or that all Orthodox Christians do not have a responsibility to call people out of sinful lifestyles, including the homosexual sexual lifestyle.

Quote
Axios wrote:
Yet masterbation is not a criminal act.
Masturbation and homosexual sexual activity are on different moral levels, both in natural law and Judeo-Christian theology. The first is a sin against chastity but does not involve another human person. The second, because it does involve another human person and is closed to the gift of life, is far more grave. Homosexual sexual activity does not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarily because such complementarily can only exist between a man and a woman.

I will not take you lack of response as a purposeful offense unless you choose to post again without answering the questions you have ignored. Please make it your only priority.

I am sorry you have been assaulted and am glad that you are recovering. I do not know the reason for your being assaulted so cannot comment but I can offer my prayers.

--

Quote
Dr. John wrote:
What makes me very uncomfortable is the persistent idea that homosexual and gay people (homosexual=sexual orientation; gay=homosexual people who don't hide their sexual orientation) are seeking 'special protections'.
The radical homosexual activists are indeed attempting to get the courts to enact special protections for homosexual sexual activity. They are very open about their agenda so it should not be surprising to anyone.

This leads to another point. There is no reason a homosexual individual would have to proclaim their homosexuality except to seek assistance to dealing with their intrinsic disorder. There is certainly no homosexual individuals to celebrate their disorder.

Quote
Dr. John wrote:
If the state determines that only 'missionary sex' (to be genteel in description) is acceptable and legal behavior, and that anything else is unacceptable and therefore also illegal, how is it that laws proscribing homosexual 'anything else' and not heterosexual 'anything else' can be seen as anything else but discriminatory?
This is a rather ludicrous argument. Homosexual sexual activity is always wrong. It is just to discriminate against something that is wrong.

Quote
Dr. John wrote:
For those who would wish an equal playing field for everybody (homosexual, bi-sexual or heterosexual) how can desiring this be called asking for 'special protections' for homosexuals?
An equal playing field for all people does not demand special legal protection for deviant behavior. Homosexual and bisexual behavior do not deserve an equal playing field because they are morally wrong. The intrinsic tendencies of an individual (towards heterosexuality or homosexuality) cannot be confused with the actions individuals choose to engage in. Who a person is is different than what a person chooses to do. To suggest that it is not possible for people to gain mastery over their actions is to reject the message of the Resurrection.

--

For the record Santorum's words on the issue at hand are nearly a direct quotation from the majority decision in the 1986 Bowers v. Hardwick case, in which Justice Byron White (a Kennedy appointment to the Supreme Court) wrote what is still American law: "It would be difficult, except by fiat, to limit the claimed right to homosexual conduct while leaving exposed to prosecution adultery, incest, and other sexual crimes even though they are committed in the home. We are unwilling to start down that road."

�fiat� means arbitrary.

#6341 04/26/03 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Administrator:
[b]For the record Santorum's words on the issue at hand are nearly a direct quotation from the majority decision in the 1986 Bowers v. Hardwick case, in which Justice Byron White (a Kennedy appointment to the Supreme Court) wrote what is still American law: "It would be difficult, except by fiat, to limit the claimed right to homosexual conduct while leaving exposed to prosecution adultery, incest, and other sexual crimes even though they are committed in the home. We are unwilling to start down that road."[/b]
Administrator,

Amazing! This particular statement has been around for seventeen years(!!!) and no AP reporter has taken it to task.

So maybe we can ignore Santorum's words (and the fact that it is nearing election campaigns) and address that which has already gone before the Supreme Court?

Anyone wish to address the comments from this Supreme Court case?
A clip below from the following webpage:

http://www.leatherquest.com/law/geo2.htm

* * * * * * *

CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER, concurring.

I join the Court's opinion, but I write separately to underscore my view that in constitutional terms there is no such thing as a fundamental right to commit homosexual sodomy.

As the Court notes, ante, at 192, the proscriptions against sodomy have very "ancient roots." Decisions of individuals relating to homosexual conduct have been subject to state intervention throughout the history of Western civilization. Condemnation of those practices is firmly rooted in Judeao-Christian moral and ethical standards. Homosexual sodomy was a capital crime under Roman law. See Code Theod. 9.7.6; Code Just. 9.9.31. See also D. Bailey, Homosexuality [478 U.S. 186, 197] and the Western Christian Tradition 70-81 (1975). During the English Reformation when powers of the ecclesiastical courts were transferred to the King's Courts, the first English statute criminalizing sodomy was passed. 25 Hen. VIII, ch. 6. Blackstone described "the infamous crime against nature" as an offense of "deeper malignity" than rape, a heinous act "the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature," and "a crime not fit to be named." 4 W. Blackstone, Commentaries *215. The common law of England, including its prohibition of sodomy, became the received law of Georgia and the other Colonies. In 1816 the Georgia Legislature passed the statute at issue here, and that statute has been continuously in force in one form or another since that time. To hold that the act of homosexual sodomy is somehow protected as a fundamental right would be to cast aside millennia of moral teaching.

This is essentially not a question of personal "preferences" but rather of the legislative authority of the State. I find nothing in the Constitution depriving a State of the power to enact the statute challenged here.

* * * * * * *

Joe

#6342 04/26/03 08:29 PM
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Mr. Thur,

I'm not going to comment on the various subjects. Its disappointing that this has gotten so much attention during Bright Week. But what amazes me is that after all you experienced you didn't lose your faith and leave the Church. Many people could have not held on after what you have seen and heard. You are held in favor by the Lord and will be rewarded for your persistence.

One of the shiny happy people
in Bright Week
Nicky's Baba

#6343 04/26/03 09:10 PM
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Posted by Joe Thur:

"Anyone wish to address the comments from this Supreme Court case?
A clip below from the following webpage:

http://www.leatherquest.com/law/geo2.htm

* * * * * * *

CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER, concurring.

I join the Court's opinion, but I write separately to underscore my view that in constitutional terms there is no such thing as a fundamental right to commit homosexual sodomy.

As the Court notes, ante, at 192, the proscriptions against sodomy have very "ancient roots." Decisions of individuals relating to homosexual conduct have been subject to state intervention throughout the history of Western civilization. Condemnation of those practices is firmly rooted in Judeao-Christian moral and ethical standards. Homosexual sodomy was a capital crime under Roman law. See Code Theod. 9.7.6; Code Just. 9.9.31. See also D. Bailey, Homosexuality [478 U.S. 186, 197] and the Western Christian Tradition 70-81 (1975). During the English Reformation when powers of the ecclesiastical courts were transferred to the King's Courts, the first English statute criminalizing sodomy was passed. 25 Hen. VIII, ch. 6. Blackstone described "the infamous crime against nature" as an offense of "deeper malignity" than rape, a heinous act "the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature," and "a crime not fit to be named." 4 W. Blackstone, Commentaries *215. The common law of England, including its prohibition of sodomy, became the received law of Georgia and the other Colonies. In 1816 the Georgia Legislature passed the statute at issue here, and that statute has been continuously in force in one form or another since that time. To hold that the act of homosexual sodomy is somehow protected as a fundamental right would be to cast aside millennia of moral teaching.

This is essentially not a question of personal "preferences" but rather of the legislative authority of the State. I find nothing in the Constitution depriving a State of the power to enact the statute challenged here."


*****************************
Dear Joe,

Simply to put the quote you've provided into perspective, I just wanted to point out that four other Supreme Court Justices did indeed comment on the judgement handed down by the court. They dissented from the majority position.

At the same site to which you were kind enough to provide a link, there is posted the dissent filed by Justices Blackmun, Brennan, Marshall and Stevens. Their tone and view is significantly different from that of Chief Justice Burger. It makes interesting reading. I will not include long quotes, but a couple might be of interest and lead those interested to follow your link.


*************************
From the Dissent:

"This case is no more about "a fundamental right to engage in homosexual sodomy," as the Court purports to declare, ante, at 191, than Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557 (1969), was about a fundamental right to watch obscene movies, or Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), was about a fundamental right to place interstate bets from a telephone booth. Rather, this case is about "the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men," namely, "the right to be let alone." Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, 478 (1928) (Brandeis, J., dissenting)."

...

"The Court's failure to comprehend the magnitude of the liberty interests at stake in this case leads it to slight the question
whether petitioner, on behalf of the State, has justified Georgia's infringement on these interests. I believe that neither of the
two general justifications for 16-6-2 that petitioner has advanced warrants dismissing respondent's challenge for failure to
state a claim.

First, petitioner asserts that the acts made criminal by the statute may have serious adverse consequences for "the general
public health and welfare," such as spreading communicable diseases or fostering other criminal activity. Brief for Petitioner
37. Inasmuch as this case was dismissed by the District Court on the pleading, it is not surprising that the record before us is
barren of any evidence to support petitioner's claim.3 In light of the state of the record, I see [478 U.S. 186, 209] no justification
for the Court's attempt to equate the private, consensual sexual activity at issue here with the "possession in the home of
drugs, firearms, or stolen goods," ante, at 195, to which Stanley refused to extend its protection. 394 U.S., at 568, n. 11. None
of the behavior so mentioned in Stanley can properly be viewed as "[v]ictimless," ante, at 195: drugs and weapons are
inherently dangerous, see, e. g., McLaughlin v. United States, 476 U.S. 16 (1986), and for property to be "stolen," someone
must have been wrongfully deprived of it. Nothing in the record before the Court provides any justification for finding the
activity forbidden by 16-6-2 to be physically dangerous, either to the persons engaged in it or to others.4 [478 U.S. 186, 210]

The core of petitioner's defense of 16-6-2, however, is that respondent and others who engage in the conduct prohibited by
16-6-2 interfere with Georgia's exercise of the "`right of the Nation and of the States to maintain a decent society,'" Paris
Adult Theater I v. Slaton, 413 U.S., at 59-60, quoting Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 U.S. 184, 199 (1964) (Warren, C. J.,
dissenting). Essentially, petitioner argues, and the Court agrees, that the fact that the acts described in 16-6-2 "for hundreds
of years, if not thousands, have been uniformly condemned as immoral" is a sufficient reason to permit a State to ban them
today. Brief for Petitioner 19; see ante, at 190, 192-194, 196.

I cannot agree that either the length of time a majority has held its convictions or the passions with which it defends them
can withdraw legislation from this Court's security. See, e. g., Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973); Loving v. Virginia, 388
U.S. 1 (1967); Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483 (1954).5 As Justice Jackson wrote so eloquently [478 U.S. 186,
211] for the Court in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 641-642 (1943), "we apply the limitations
of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the
social organization. . . . [F]reedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of
freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order." See also Karst,
89 Yale L. J., at 627. It is precisely because the issue raised by this case touches the heart of what makes individuals what
they are that we should be especially sensitive to the rights of those whose choices upset the majority.

The assertion that "traditional Judeo-Christian values proscribe" the conduct involved, Brief for Petitioner 20, cannot provide
an adequate justification for 16-6-2. That certain, but by no means all, religious groups condemn the behavior at issue gives
the State no license to impose their judgments on the entire citizenry. The legitimacy of secular legislation depends instead on
whether the State can advance some justification for its law beyond its conformity to religious doctrine. See, e. g., McGowan
v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420, 429-453 (1961); Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980). Thus, far from buttressing his case,
petitioner's invocation of Leviticus, Romans, St. Thomas Aquinas, and sodomy's heretical status during the Middle Ages
undermines his suggestion that 16-6-2 represents a legitimate use of secular coercive power.6 A State can no more punish
private behavior because [478 U.S. 186, 212] of religious intolerance than it can punish such behavior because of racial animus.
"The Constitution cannot control such prejudices, but neither can it tolerate them. Private biases may be outside the reach of
the law, but the law cannot, directly or indirectly, give them effect." Palmore v. Sidoti, 466 U.S. 429, 433 (1984). No matter
how uncomfortable a certain group may make the majority of this Court, we have held that "[m]ere public intolerance or
animosity cannot constitutionally justify the deprivation of a person's physical liberty." O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563,
575 (1975). See also Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc., 473 U.S. 432 (1985); United States Dept. of Agriculture v.
Moreno, 413 U.S. 528, 534 (1973)."

******************

It appears that the decision was not unanimous but was issued by a seriously divided court.

Again, thanks for the link.

Steve

#6344 04/27/03 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by Inawe:
Dear Joe,

Simply to put the quote you've provided into perspective, I just wanted to point out that four other Supreme Court Justices did indeed comment on the judgement handed down by the court. They dissented from the majority position.
Steve,

Yes. That is why I provided a link.

I posted Chief Justice Warren Burger's opinion to help relate to the points made here. For all that goes for separation of Church and State, the Judeo-Christian tradition is mentioned.

But our Judeo-Christian tradition is NOT based on popular vote or majority vote of judges. This is the main difference.

Joe

#6345 04/27/03 12:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 788
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I am sorry you have been assaulted and am glad that you are recovering.
The assault was no more brutal than the punishment I would suffer if subjected to the Texas law you support. I appreciate the fact you think my suffering should not be from vigilantes.


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I will not take you lack of response as a purposeful offense unless you choose to post again without answering the questions you have ignored. Please make it your only priority.
I think it is rather offensive for non-Orthodox Christians to bark questions to Orthodox during this week and then to pretend it is an offensive not to receive a response. Nevertheless, it will give it a stab.

Here are your last two postings that ended with a question mark.

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Have you read Fr. Thomas�s post in this thread or the link he provided to the OCA website?
Yes.

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To what moral system do you look to in supporting the laws prohibiting consensual adult-child sexual activity if you do not appeal to the Judeo-Christian moral foundation of our society? Please be specific. You can�t simply state that �everyone knows� because there are people who are complaining that society discriminates against them for their inclinations to have sex with children.
One can make an arguement for protecting children from predatory adults from drawing on Judeo-Christian morality. That is not the exclusive basis for protecting children as shown by the fact that individuals and societies that are not Judeo-Christian have reached the same conclusion. Islamic, atheistic, Buddhist, and pagan societies as well as individuals following secular humanism have asked for civil protection of children.

The common basis for an objection to adult-child sexual activity of all of these moral systems is an understanding that sexual activity should be consensual and children cannot give consent. (Hence Judeo-Christian and other moral systems would not accept your characterization of "consensual adult-child sexual activity". Children cannot give consent.)

This has long been the legal basis for the prohibition of adult-child sex. Some social debate has been on the edges (the world's catholic countries tend to have the age of consent at 14 - 16; the world's Protestant countries at 16 - 18). But even that debate proves the point -- it is a question of consent.

So a change in the law concerning consensual sex has no direct bearing on the law concerning non-consensual sex.

Does the civil law need to prohibit all sexual acts contrary to the Judeo-Christian moral system? The State of Texas has repealed laws formerly enacted that prohibited divorce, fornincation, heterosexual sodomy including sodomy between married couples.

Axios

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