www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Rubrics for Sunday/Communion

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it keeping with Eastern Tradition NOT to kneel or make prostrations on Sunday?

Also, what is the proper thing to do after receiving Communion? I believe you are supposed to remain standing, no?

The reason I ask is this: I went to my local Byzantine church yesterday. Everybody kneels during the epiclesis AND after receiving Communion. I actually remained standing, which I believe is the custom. I didn't do this to draw attention to myself, rather I would love to see the Eastern Churches return to their Tradition devoid of any Latinization(pews, kneelers etc.)

Did I do the right thing?

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Ideally, and in accordance with the regulations set down by the First Ecumenical Council, kneeling is not permitted on Sundays.

As one Orthodox Metropolitan indicated to me, many former Eastern Catholics who became Orthodox years ago in North America brought with them their "Latinized" customs, such as kneeling for the Consecration and afterwards.

In many cases, rather than fight a losing battle to get them to change, many churches just let be.

You didn't "do wrong" in standing. What I do when I am in parishes were they kneel on Sundays is stand by the wall so that my standing might not be too conspicuous.

I have found that when I stand when others kneel, I get some angry looks as if I am being disrespectful in not kneeling!

God bless,

Alex

This is what I did, actually. There are a few rows up in front, off to the side where nobody in the rest of the church can see you. If I had been sitting in the middle, I probably would not have done it.

This leads to another question. What can be done to combat Latinisms in the Byzantine Church? Is this an issue that the bishops give high priority to? It is my understanding that Metropolitan +JUDSON was very determined about returning to Tradition. May God send another such Archbishop.

Columcille

I do not think that what you did was wrong, but......

As they say, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

As for what I do.....

I do as those whose church it is do. If they kneel, I kneel out of respect for them and their local practices and traditions. I do not want to come off a being superior to them, or as one who knows better.

As it says in the Bible, Romans chapter 14 talks about food and how even if we believe that no food is unclean, but someone we are with does, we are not to eat of the "unclean" food so as not to act as a stumbling block or a hindrance in the way of a brother. I know this speaks of food but I think it can be applied to many other situations.

Romans 14
1 As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions.
2 One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him.
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.
15 If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died.
16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;
18 he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats;
21 it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble.
22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God; happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves.
23 But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.


Your little brother in Christ,
David

>>>As they say, when in Rome do as the Romans do<<<

Maybe, but I was in Byzantium and they were doing as the Romans do

Columcille

Columcille wrote: "...I went to my local Byzantine church yesterday..." and "...What can be done to combat Latinisms in the Byzantine Church?..."

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but, IMHO, unless you are a REGULAR MEMBER OF THE PARISH, STAY OUT OF IT!!!!

At least in my parish, you are already on shaky ground by being a Latin; to come and then tell us we're doing wrong while more than likely get you thrown out or at least told not to come back.

This is the one thing that the people in my parish object to the most. Who are these people who come into our church and tell us how to worship?

very offended and upset....

mark

Mark,
Part of me agrees with you, that is why I posted Romans 14. I think it kind of fits, don't you?


Your little brother in Christ,
David

I think you judge me a bit too harshly. I meant no offense in anything I said. I'm sorry if you did take offense.

I will say this however; you're not doing yourself, or the Byzantine Faith any favors with this kind of attitude. Being on "shaky ground" because of being a Latin is far from a Christian mindset.

Columcille

>>>I don't mean to be rude or anything<<<

I have a hard time believing that.

[This message has been edited by Columcille (edited 06-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Columcille (edited 06-25-2001).]

Dear Columcille,

I have to apologise for some of the "Byzantine" comments earlier

I think it is great when Catholics of other traditions come to us and point out the obvious incongruities that exist in our Church.

We need to get our act together, to be sure.

However, and I am now speaking to those who responded to Columcille, he did not tell anyone about how they were to worship when he was in the parish.

If anything, he is the first Roman Catholic I have ever come across who wanted to be respectful of the traditions of our Church.

He is truly remarkable and I cannot but have a "full heart" when I read his post and his dilemma.

The reaction that Columcille received here is similar to ones I've received whenever I've raised the matter of certain Latinisms in our parish.

"You are too young to try and come here and teach us!" (Boy, were they ever wrong about my age! )

And some of the greatest defenders of the Byzantine Rite, I have found, are also those in whose parishes the Rosary is recited between Liturgies . . .

No, I think that Columcille provides us with an objective point of view in these things.

So does the Roman Church in its directives on Eastern regulations and traditions that we also seem oblivious to.

And look at the Oriental Institute in Rome! How many RC and Jesuit professors there are who know way more about the Eastern Church - and respest its traditions more than we do.

The day when a Tridentine Roman Catholic can be sensitive to Latinisms in our Church is the day when things are really beginning to look up for us.

Alex

Medved!

You are too nasty! Stop being so hateful! Stop it! Stop it! Let the Roman Catholic man respect authenic Byzantine Tradition.

How ironic that you're attacking a Roman Catholic man when you do the kneeling...the ROMAN Catholic tradition!

BTW I'm Byzantine Catholic so you can't attack me just in case if you think I'm Roman. Pah!

spdundas

I thank you, brother. Your kind words do more than you can imagine. That said, let me also say: I am truly sorry if my attitude sounded condescending or self-righteous. This was the farthest thing from my mind. I beg apology for the offense I caused. Please believe that I NEVER intend or set out to offend people.

Like I have stated before; I echo the call of our Holy Father. I want to see the Eastern Churches re-establish their Tradition and all that goes with it. It is a beautiful thing that I, Roman Catholic that I am, what to see flourish.

Again I beg forgiveness.

Columcille

Dear Columcille, Dove of the Church,

You sound like me after 20 years of marriage - begging forgiveness even when nothing wrong happened!

Alex

"...You are too nasty! Stop being so hateful..."

I don't think so!

I've been in my parish for over 25yrs. I was one of those who was there hanging lights on Great Thursday so they would ready for Paska. I'm also one of those who's there sweating over a hot stove cooking holupki and halushki for the Food Festivals so the locals can come and see the peasants and their quaint customs. I teach in the ECF classes and also teach the folk customs and tradition of my church. I have also baked prosphora, arranged flowers, done cantoring, cut the grass, moved a safe (no small feat), cut down trees, painted the church and basement and rectory basement. I have laid tile in the parish hall and decorated for Paska and Christmas. I have worked my dupa off for my parish.

What gives ANYONE the right to visit MY PARISH and tell me I'm worshipping wrong???

Go back and fix YOUR OWN PARISH and leave mine alone!

If you think that's hateful, then so be it...

mark

>>>What gives ANYONE the right to visit MY PARISH and tell me I'm worshipping wrong???<<<

Nobody. But as I stated previously, that was certainly not my intention.

Again, I apologize.

Columcille

So I guess no one here agrees with me that Romans 14 would apply in this instance?

I guess its ok to do as I please even if the Bishops have given the ok to continue kneeling.

So even with this, I know better than the bishops so I shouldn't kneel?

Not only does Romans 14 apply but so does the issue of obedience to authority.


Your little brother in Christ,
David