www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Amazing eastern Catholic experience

Though I've perused these boards off and on for the past year, I just recently registered my own account, so allow me to introduce myself: I'm a 21-year old religion major at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, and I'm currently in RCIA at the local Newman Center parish. Having studied and explored Catholicism for the past two years, I'm continually inspired and moved by the depth of this ancient faith, and I'm particularly interested in the relationship between the Christian East and West. I find eastern theology and spirituality fascinating, and today I finally worked up the courage to attend Vespers at a Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) church, Sts. Cyril and Methodius in Cary, NC.

The church is a converted house and looks a bit run-down, but age couldn't detract from the beauty of the sanctuary. Unfortunately, I was accidentally 30 minutes early so the whole place was dark, but I was blessed to spend twenty minutes before the start of the service talking with a deacon. As it turns out, he's a recent graduate from UNC and a convert to Catholicism, so we had a lot in common. He explained the order of the serivce and showed me where to follow along in the prayer book (is it called a missal in the eastern Churches?), and he told me to just cross myself if I ever got lost, which only happened a few times.

The liturgy itself was amazing. I expected the incense and the prostrations and the chants because I had read about these litrugical elements plenty of times, and they were certainly beautiful, but I was most impressed by the way in which, as I've heard numerous times from eastern Christians, the liturgy truly is one's primary catechetical tool and the fount from which flows the contents of the faith. At this vespers alone, I was exposed to the Trinitarian nature of God, the relationship between divnity and humanity in Christ, the role of Mary as the Theotokos, and the lives and martyrdoms of St. Timothy and St. Anthanasius.

After the liturgy, the priest introduced himself to me, and the deacon whom I mentioned earlier spent a few more minutes explaining the theology behind some of the icons. I never knew, for example, that the blue and red robes in which Christ is often depicted symobolize his divinity and humanity. The church is a bit of drive from my house, but I definitely plan to attend Divine Liturgy next Sunday. Sorry for the rant: I just wanted to introduce myself and share my excitement over such an amazing experience.

God bless,

Chris

Chris welcome and glad to hear your experience was positive. One can try to explain about the Liturgy, whether Vespers or some other service, but until it is experienced - then you can start putting things together. God bless and go as often as you can.
Deacon Diak

Yes, welcome. A bit of advice: put down the book and just take it in. You can join in the easy parts, all the "Lord have mercys" and so on, Trying to follow in the book will only distract you. If you make a habit of it you can start following in the book after you have a feel for it, or just wait until you start remembering the responses.
-Daniel

Again, welcome to the forum!

I agree, the liturgy is amazing, and Daniel is right, don't worry about the book or missalette that may be used there. Just take it all in at first, then start putting it all together as you get used to it.

I usually recommend people (I do this myself) just hold the book closed with a finger or ribbon in the place where the Creed is printed, because this is where we all respond together and we want to pray in the same words that the congregation will use, there are a few other spots where this might be useful too but you can find that out for yourself. Most laypersons will know the responses by heart from just a few repetitions!

If you really embrace the spirituality of the Christian east there is practically no limit to how deeply immersed you may find yourself. Keep in mind that a parish can never have too many deacons

+T+
Michael

Welcome to facing East. This Liturgy is mainly the same week after week in its main form (as is the format for most religions, besides Christianity), BUT , the variations created by the time of the Liturgical year, the Saints or Martyrs commemorated, the Epistle and Gospel readings, etc, give this an infinite galaxy of nuance as well as your own personal state of mind and heart, and the burdens/joys one carries into the service. I was indoctrinated in my teens/20's to be anti-traditional and anti-liturgical. Well, it was much to overcome my reticence in calling the Priest ...'Father'... took 3 mos of sticking it out, when I wanted sometimes to bolt. Nevertheless, I discovered not only the beauty of the Liturgy of St Chrysostom, but of the chant, the Icons, the whole kit and kiboodle, warmed me to my soul. What I had been warned against, was what I instead really needed. And, then , to discover that my ancestors worshipped in this manner in the Rusyn villages where they came from, but, was not passed down to us, the grandchildren, who remember Tato and Baba , who came from the 'old country'. My best wishes, and stick with it. If you have a chance to attend any Old calendar parishes...DO SO..customs may be different but it is well worth the investment of time and effort. OH< I had a Priest who was in NC and ..I think?? in the Museum of Natural History..in Raleigh, there 'was' an archeological relic of an altar which came from Germany, circa 1st millenium. S Bohom go with GOD, mik

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. I completely agree that, no matter how much one reads about the Divine Liturgy, personal experience of it is the only way to really get a grasp on Eastern spirituality and theology. Fr. Robert Taft, S.J., has noted that "liturgy is simply the mirror to eastern Christianity's inner world", and my meager experience of it thus far confirms his assessment. I'm really looking forward to returning on Sunday.

Incidentally, the deacon whom I mentioned earlier recommended some books for me to read, but his list is pretty exhaustive. If I post his email below, can any of you recommend three or four of them on which I should focus? I'm trying to get through two other books at the moment on top of my school work, so I don't have the luxury of reading them all at the moment. Thanks for the help!

Deacon's email:

Chris,

Christ is born! Glorify Him! (We say that during the forty days of Christmas, then we say, "Glory be to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!"; the Latins say, "Laudetur Iesus Christus! Semper Laudetur!"). Many of these authors are Orthodox, so you have to steer through their treatment of the papacy. Most of them, however, are revered by both Catholics and Orthodox for their great studies.

Some good books about the Liturgy are:

Beyond East and West: Problems in Liturgical Understanding, Fr. Robert Taft, SJ
The Eucharist, Fr. Alexander Schmemann, St. Vladimir's Press
The Liturgy of the Hours in East and West, Fr. Robert Taft, SJ

Fr. Taft is one of the foremost scholars of the Byzantine rite and will explain many of the historical/techincal aspects as well as the "flavor" of the Byzantine rite.


Book on Icons:

The Open Door, Frederica Matthews-Green (This is the best introduction I have found)

General Theology books:

I highly recommend anything by Sergei Bulgakov-he was a great theologian of the 20th century Russian Renaissance and the later diaspora. Some of his books include Sophia: The Wisdom of God; and The Lamb of God. His books are the best expression of Christianity for the modern world.

A great introduction to the Byzantine church is Byzantine Theology by Fr. John Meyendorff--I know that Davis Library has an old copy on the second floor.
Also: The Orthodox Church, by Bishop Kallistos Ware (Timothy Ware)

A good website for patristics and the life of the Church: www.monachos.net [monachos.net]


I hope this helps your continued spiritual/intellectual growth. I have fond memories of finding the Catholic Church and have had no regrets about joining her ranks.

May Christ our true God have mercy on you and save you, through the prayers of his most pure Mother, of St. Timothy the apostle, and of all the saints,

Chrysostom

Are people not troubled by the fact that someone looking in to Catholicism is given Orthodox books as a suggestion to read?

Andrew

I think that the Deacon's statement to Chrysostom was accurate-just look over the negativity towards the Papacy in otherwise excellent (Orthodox) books.

Alice

This is common practice among Byzantine Catholics, who have far more in common spiritually and liturgically with the Orthodox than with Latin Catholics.
You're not being stingy, are you? :p
-D

No, the more people that read about Orthodoxy the better IMO.

I asked, because it does frankly seem odd to me. I don�t see how this could be a matter of skipping past negativity to the Pope, which I think as phrased would underestimate the importance of this point. Orthodoxy explicitly rejects the post schism claims of the Latin Church about the Papacy. I think it could be fairly said that the Papacy is the central identifying point of doctrinal belief in the Latin Church. This is not a minor point in other words. What if an inquirer in to Catholicism read the Orthodox Church of Bishop Kallistos and decided the Latin Church was in fact wrong, and then decided to become Orthodox. What would people think about that? Wouldn�t that cause some consternation?

The converse situation would be something like placing Catholic materials on our book table. I simply cannot fathom that ever occurring. What would it tell the laity, wouldn�t it sow confusion?

Andrew

I think that there is alot of material around written by both Catholics and Orthodox that the other can benefit from and which is spiritually edifying, and not polemical (as in: 'why we are right and why they are wrong')

Right off the bat these come to mind: books about the lives of St. John Bosco, St. Therese the little flower, Pope John Paul II, (including books written BY him like 'Crossing the Threshold of Hope'), books wtitten by Father Groeschel trying to find common spiritual ground with the rest of Christianity, etc....and from my side, off the top of my head these come to mind: St. Seraphim of Sarov, the two books of Father Arseny, A Saint of our Times, (St. Nektarios) etc.

I know of one poster here whose Roman Catholic Church has a book club which meets with the local Greek Orthodox church's book club, and they exchange books to spiritually edify each other.

As it is quite difficult truly living the Christian life these days, I believe that material of a spiritual nature which builds up one's spiritual life and awareness can be easily exchanged between our Latin brothers and ourselves.

In Christ,
Alice

While I agree that the recommendation of some Orthodox literature to a Catholic neophyte might be an unwise decision, Deacon Chrysostom recommended these books with the awareness that I've been attending Mass for two years and have a substantial grounding in the faith (though I don't meant to suggest that I have no more to learn; on the contrary, a lifetime of study, prayer, and discernment is inadequate!). I delayed joining the RICA program for so long because I wanted to allow ample time for discernment.

As long as one is well-versed in Catholic essentials, I see no other option for an individual wanting to learn more about eastern Christian praxis and spirituality than Orthodox (or eastern Catholic) literature. As someone else pointed out, eastern Catholics have much more in common liturgically and theologically with Orthodox Christianity than with Latin Christianity. It would make no sense for an eastern Catholic wanting to learn more about his own spiritual heritage to read the "Summa Theologica", just as the Philokalia doesn't offer much insight into scholastic thought. I think the important thing is to avoid polemical literatue and those that disparage one tradition or the other.

I read Bishop Ware's "The Orthodox Church" a few years ago, and I still use it as a reference source for eastern theology and spirituality. While I obviously disagree with his position on the papacy, he offers some intriguing insights on the role of the papacy in a reunited Christendom, and his pastoral tone and engaging narrative style is always a treat. Similarly, Frederia-Matthewes Green's "The Illumined Heart" illustrates some fascinating components of the eastern mindset. Has anyone read any of Buglakov? I've never heard of him, but the deacon's high regard for his work has peaked my curiosity.

Andrew asks: "What if an inquirer in to Catholicism read the Orthodox Church of Bishop Kallistos and decided the Latin Church was in fact wrong, and then decided to become Orthodox. What would people think about that? Wouldn�t that cause some consternation?"

Somehow that seems unlikely to me, but in such a case the Orthodox neophyte would have my sympathy. I hope that both priests would tell him that one needs to do more than simply read a book to decide which Church God is calling one to join!


"The converse situation would be something like placing Catholic materials on our book table. I simply cannot fathom that ever occurring. What would it tell the laity, wouldn�t it sow confusion?"

I'm sorry to read that. I can easily think of books from Catholic publishers, and even Catholic authors, that Orthodox people can read with great profit and with no threat to the Orthodox faith.

Incognitus

incognitus

Obviously somebody is not going to read a book (I would think) and that would be what makes them decide which church to join. Providing cathetical materials that present a picture contrary to ones own faith however still (to me) seems like a strange practice. I would think it would create confusion in the minds of the faithful and pose a strange dilemma to inquirers, both of which may not be as well grounded in what they believe as the person in question here. I could not see my own church doing this, and I last time I checked there was material actually written specifically for Catholic and Protestant inquirers.

Like I said, I am not criticizing the suggestion to read Orthodox material. My only quibble with this list is that it is not what I would recommend to someone looking in to Orthodoxy, but I realize that is not the intention here.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

You are correct regarding the completeness or all inclusiveness of the list.

I would also include Facing East, by Frederica Green-Mathewes, The Face of God, by +Archbishop Joseph Raya, and The Inner Kingdom, by Bishop Kallistos Wares. Last, but not least, I would also recommend The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God (Paperback)
by St. John Maximovitch, and The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church (Paperback)
by Vladimir Lossky.

Michael