www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News To Tithe or Not to Tithe?

Administrator,


I would like to take this opportunity to clarify my position on this matter. First of all I do not have objections against the priesthood in the Catholic Church. What I object to is the hierarchy of the church (i.e. Bishops). Like I said in my original post,
Further, I would like to correct or clarify my other post in which I stated,


I am not a Donatist! What I meant with the above statement was that I do not think it is far for me to attend a church and not tithe to that church. I feel it is morally wrong for me to tithe to the Catholic Church at the present time. My conscience will not allow me to do so. Instead I have found a wonder little charity to tithe to until I feel like I can honestly give money to the Church again.

I started this thread not in an effort to begin a witch but rather to discuss an issue, which has been plaguing my soul as well as many other Catholics.

In regards to your statement,


I believe the United States Catholic Bishops has been hurt recently with many of its members involved with scandal. Each of these cases has either resulted in a guilty plea in court or a court conviction. For example,

Rev. Anthony J. O'Connell, bishop of the Diocese of Palm Beach resigned from the Church after giving $125,000 of MY money to promise his accusers not to purse him with further claims.

Rev. James McCarthy, a bishop in the Archdiocese of New York who was an assistant to Cardinal Edward Egan, stepped down after admitting to having multiple affairs with women. Father McCarthy, 59, was the fourth U.S. bishop to resign in a sex scandal since January.

Rev. J. Kendrick Williams, a bishop in the Archdiocese of Lexington, Ky. resigned after being accused of molesting children decades ago.

Rev. Rembert Weakland, a bishop in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee resigned after acknowledging that he paid a man $450,000 of MY money to settle a sexual-misconduct accusation.

Rev. Daniel Ryan, a bishop in the Archdiocese of Springfield in Illinois resigned because he was found guilty of consorting with male prostitutes and pressuring priests for sexual favors against their will.

Rev. Patrick Ziemann, a bishop in Archdiocese of Santa Rosa resigned after the church paid more than half a million of MY dollars to settle the case.

Rev. Keith Symons, a bishop in the Archdiocese of Palm Beach resigned after he admitted sexually abusing five boys in his career.

There are many things that appear very Anti-Catholic in which many of our Bishops today are involved in such as:
Reported by the Creditable National Catholic Register in which Bishop Untener was was allegedly running a sex desensitization program at the seminary that involved seminarians watching x-rated pornographic films.
Bishop Thomas Gumbleton and Bishop Joseph Imesch of the Detroit Archdiocese funded the The Catholic Family Network is an official support group/ministry of the Joliet Diocese, “for parents and friends of gays and lesbians and their children.” The official book used by the organization was title, Journey to Moriah. The book allegedly details Rhea Murray's life and her acceptance and defense of her only son's “coming out” as a homosexual.
I could go on and on about the things I have found out about these Bishops in America. Now, I do NOT want to state that I believe EVERY Bishop is too blame but I do believe the Church is very much corrupt and in need of reform. I do not believe that certain organizations like the one I posted early are on a “Witch Hunt”. It seems that a “Witch Hunt” is not needed since many of these Bishops admit their discrepancy in public.

Regards to the Fathers comment,
Please see my previous comment,
As far as your other comment Father,
Father, I spent VERY LITTLE time finding this information out for myself. I did not believe any of this until I decided to see for myself by doing a simple web search on the internet. If you wish to learn how I did this please send me a private message.
Finally, I am not looking to condemn anyone I just want answers.
1.) Am I wrong for not going to the Catholic Church because I think I should tithe?
2.) Am I wrong about my attitude toward the church after the evidence I presented? If so why or why not.
3.) Should we as Catholics report abusive Bishops? If so to who will hear are reports?
If I offended anyone please accept my apologizes!
Yours In Christ!

[ 08-13-2002: Message edited by: aChristian@Work ]

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: Dragani ]

Adminstrator...I thought that this topic had been closed in the previous thread. I would be happy if you would close this thread and remove from the folder. All that could be said constructively on this topic has already been said in the letter you shared with us from your priest friend in the other thread. Please spare us more of this sort of thing. Don

Christian,

I have not found where you wrote that you would not receive communion from a celibate priest for fear he might be a practicing homosexual and/or pedophile. Perhaps I missed that. Perhaps you did not write that. To set the record straight: Did you write that? Do you believe it?

If you believe this I think your fears are misplaced. I believe a majority of our priests are God loving and God fearing men. If you did not write this and do not believe this then shame on those who say that you did write and do believe such a thing.

I do believe that priests who do break their vows must be report to the Bishops. If they will not act, and one has solid evidence that the priests have broken their vows and continue to do so, then they should be exposed to the wider Church. If a priest commits a crime they ought to be reported to the police just like anyone else who commits a crime.

Dan Lauffer

1. In the Catholic Church you are able to receive sacraments whose validity and efficacy you do not question. You are certainly wrong not to avail yourself of them.

3. You say that you have spent very little time investigating and have presented no independentlt gathered facts. Therefore, apart from the fantasies you shared in the closed thread, you have nothing to report. In your case, this question is moot.

2. Your attitude about not participating in the sacramental life is wrong.

djs

[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

And Bishop Fulton Sheen said when asked about receiveing communion from a priest in this situation what he would do. His responce was he would go right up to him and receive the Eucharist from him. Because it was not he who changed the Bread and the Wine into the Body and Blood of Chirst, but the action of the Holy Spirit. Christ Himslef prepares the Eucharistic Meal for us. As it is written in th prayers of the priest, "always eaten, but never consumed." My brother you are receiving the continuation of the meal that Christ Himslef prepared for us at the Last Supper. How can you refuse?

Rose

I believe you are missing the point here or I did not make myself clear. I am NOT talking about priest but rather Bishops! Secondly, I believe I CAN receive sacraments from ANY valid ordaine priest REGARDLESS of his moral state.

The question is quit simple! Should those who morally object to the Bishops still Tithe to the Church? Is it ok to go to a Church and NOT tithe?
Since there is a financal crisis in the church in some diocese I think this is a VALID topic worthy of mature and honest dialog. This topic I think could help many Catholics who have fallen away from the faith and are seeking answers.

We CAN NOT just put are heads in the sand on these very SERIOUS problems (if they are problems) facing the Church today!

[ 08-14-2002: Message edited by: aChristian@Work ]

Dear Ray,

This is truly a difficult and painful situation and one that I myself admittedly cannot fully appreciate since I am really removed from it.

This reminds me of the concern taxpayers have when they feel their money isn't put to good use by their elected government officials. I get this sort of call frequently at my place of work.

You could stop tithing and give what most people place into the collection plate.

I don't think that your participation in the Sacramental life should hinge on your private decision as to how much of a financial contribution you would like to make to the Church.

In the Ukrainian Catholic Church, there were, and still are, instances where entire parishes show their dislike for this or that policy via the pocketbook.

When we had an Apostolic Administrator appointed us by Rome, our Eparchy was divided etc.

But what was the straw that broke the camel's back was that our old Bishop wasn't invited by one of our main parishes to serve the Paschal services. The new bishop was, but the old one was snubbed.

The effect was that over half of the parishioners of that parish went to other parishes for Easter services.

The parish priest then understood that what he had done was wrong. He never invited the new bishop back.

And we had a lot of issues over Patriarch Josef Slipyj, Rome and our Latinized Bishops etc.

But at no time was there ever a question of not attending Church, or approaching the Sacraments.

If someone didn't like the parish, one would move to another one, as I did myself two years ago.

You say you don't condemn all priests and bishops.

But are you saying that ANY money you would give to the Catholic Church would be used inappropriately? Is all money donated to the Church now being used exclusively for the purpose of settling sex scandals? The Church would close down completely if that were the case.

To tithe to the Church is a noble thing. St Volodymyr the Great even built a great Cathedral using a tenth of all his wealth and it was called the "Tithe Church."

But to stay away from Church because you feel you cannot tithe is or could be seen as the sin of pride.

The Church won't stand or fall on whether you tithe or not.

But your spiritual state will stand or fall on your decision regarding participation in the Sacramental life.

Go to an Eastern Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church if you are so disgusted with the Latin Church.

But to suspend your sacramental participation is truly like "throwing out good money after bad."

Alex

Orthodox Catholic,

Thanks so much for your positive comments. If there is one person in this room I can count on it is you!

I have been given this much thought since my original post. First I thought about given my money to the organization that I originally posted. I thought this would be the answer since I see they produce results. However, I do not want to go out and conduct a "Witch Hunt". After all my uncle was a Religious Brother before he died a few years ago. My cousin is a Sister of St. Paul (press nuns). So, I know there are MANY GOOD and wonderful religious.

Therefore, I have found an alternative! What if I were to give my money to the Utilities of the Church? Just ask the Church to make sure my money went to the Power, Gas, and water bills ONLY! That way nothing gets back to Rome. This would both clear my conscience and allow me to return to the church.

What are your thoughts?

Yours in Christ!

I do not believe that we are missing the point, I think you are not being clear.

Regardless of his moral state you still are choose to not recieve the sacraments.


I do not believe that there is any requirements to tithe before you can recieve the sacraments. There may be some requirements to recieve the sacraments of initiation, like showing membership in the parish, but I am unaware of any priest that asks for proof of membership before you may partake of the Eucharist.

I believe that you must tithe, but to whom is the question. While I was attending a Roman Catholic parish, before I found my way home to the East, I did not give to the parish, nor the diocese. I found a worthy catholic charity, and a certian religious order, and gave to them.

Now I do not tithe that much, as I volunteer in the parish and am working to get out of debt so that I can give my life.


As I said, find a good Catholic Charity and give your money there.


No one is advocating putting our heads in the sand, but the opposite of putting your head in the sand is not a witch hunt, which from your posts in the closed thread it appeared that you where calling for.


David

Alex,

I've never been more pleased with any response you have ever given. You are one of the few who have taken this man's anguish seriously and have addressed the issues he raises. I don't know how to respond to those who would shun this fellow or who would condemn him for his questions.

I don't know what to make of the priests accusation. Christian@work did not say that he would avoided communion out of fear that all celibate priests were homosexualists or pedophiles. He did not even hint at it. However, from my experience such comments as the priests often come from a guilty conscience. I pray that isn't the case here.

Thank you brother for taking this question seriously. You have helped me think more deeply about this question of financial support for a Church that has gone astray. I think that withholding funds from a wayward Church is a noble effort.

We give generously to our parish because our bishop is an honest lover of God and our priest is courageous and honest. If they were not I would no doubt follow the path taken by our Christian friend.

I will say to those who protest too much against Christian's questions "If I were in your shoes I would keep quiet. Your protesting makes you look like you have something to hide."

Dan Lauffer

Ray,

I'm not sure one can designate ones giving in this fashion. I'd love to be there to hear the conversation when you tell your priest that you are going to do this and why.

"What if I were to give my money to the Utilities of the Church? Just ask the Church to make sure my money went to the Power, Gas, and water bills ONLY! That way nothing gets back to Rome"

Dan Lauffer

Dear aChristian@work:

The main point, of transcendent importance, is not whether you feel that you CAN go to church and receive the sacraments, but that you DO.

The issue of tithing is secondary, by far. Good suggestions have been made on this point. But your motivations are not very clear: you mentioned concern that YOUR money has been used in cash settlements in Milwaukee and Santa Rosa, as well as Palm Beach. I think it's fair to say that you cannot substantiate this claim. It sounds like more of a rationalization than a reason. Moreover, YOUR money similarly "supports" any number of morally questionable activities in government and business. So what is your point really?

djs

PS Dan: Among sinners, I am the first - so of course I have much to hide, but am not intimidated by it.

Dear Ray,

I think your decision in this regard is extremely well-thought out and responsible.

It shows the depth of your Christian commitment in the midst of acutely felt pain and disappointment.

I salute you, Big Guy!

Alex

Dear Dan,

Yes, Ray's comments hit home with me as I've said.

In the hey-day of the Patriarchal movement in the Ukrainian Catholic Church (not that it's not still a burning issue), one parish decided not to admit those who recognized Josef Slipyj as "Patriarch."

I was myself asked, as I was walking in for Sunday Liturgy, if I acknowledged him as Patriarch.

When I said, quite emphatically, that I did, I was told I couldn't enter as I was being disobedient to the Church.

One such parish in England actually had to have priests sent to it by the Patriarch to confess all those standing in the streets and who couldn't enter for the same reason. It was Lent, you know . . .

And you thought RC's had problems . . .?

This experience taught me some basic rules of approach in a parish.

For example, I've prepared petitions on specific issues that were then signed by parishioners.

One such petition was signed by literally everyone and the priest, after seeing it, quietly made the change it was asking for without further ado.

And I think that a lot of the problems with RC bishops etc. point to a lack of proper lay organization and say at the parish level.

I"ve applied this to my work in the secular political realm. Whenever people call me to say their political representatives aren't responsive to them, I do a petition for them.

I did one such petition recently, and a 90+ year old woman went door to door in this heat to gather signatures.

At last count, this issue has garnered 36,547 signatures (August 14, 2002) with more coming. These will be presented in the Legislature, with press release and other public announcements.

The woman who originally contacted me with her issue will get what she feels shoudl be coming to her.

She found out that many others feel as she does.

And everyone feels a sense of exhilaration for joing together in a common cause and knowing that their united voice has made a positive impact for change.

That's what we need to do in the Church, in a respectful and courteous way toward the hierarchy.

Bishops are really no different from anyone else in knowing where their bread is buttered.

I can hear Gerard Serafin in the background asking for studies, reports, and other evidence for this. I can even hear him telling me I'm spouting off, or teasing etc.

But I think you, Ray and I understand each other here, don't we?

If the Bishop we report things to is unresponsive, it's time we told him, "You may be of the High Priesthood, but we Laity are of the Royal Priesthood!"

Alex

Alex,

Once again you have hit a home run.

Take courage, Ray, many of us do understand and support your walk.

Dan Lauffer