www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Need suggestion for church for Holy Week and Easter

Dear Charles M,

Is there a Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish in your area? What about a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parish? I tend to think either of these might have the schedule you are thinking of.

Tony

CM, I am curious as to what was meant by the following statements.

Of what changes do you speak? Is this specifically concerning Great Week or are you referring to the Liturgy throughout the year?

Doesn't your parish celebrate the Presanctified Liturgy?

When is Vespers and St. Basil for Great Thursday celebrated in your parish?

It seems to me that there are some good arguments on both sides of this issue. What is baffling to me is that while so many seem to have strong feelings about the scheduling many parishes seem to be like a friend's. There they will have Vespers with Liturgy on Great Thursday at 6pm and on Holy Saturday Resurrection Matins at 630pm. So, they are not following the received practice nor the idea of making the services "fit" the time of day that is attributed to them. Yet, apparently it works there.

On a personal level I think that making all the services fit or taking them all according to the received practice shows greater cohesion within Holy Week. Mixing and matching seems confusing.

I hope this thread will be helpful and not only polemical.

Tony, There are Ukrainian churches all over the place in NNJ. I don�t think any of them use English. I have not been to any. I don�t know of any Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parishes. Is there a way to find them on the internet? I would really like a recommendation from someone who goes to the parish they recommend.

Larry, everything has changed. The divine liturgy is radically different than it used to be. It must be almost 5 years since they changed it. It is so different we don�t feel at home any more. The resurrection matins used to be so nice when it was followed by the divine liturgy. Now they have vespers and basil liturgy followed by matins. Attendance is down by about half. Noone wants a 3 hour service. The parish does have the presanctified liturgy but we stopped going 2 years ago. Its just silly. You have to keep standing up and kneeling all the time. And they took away all the Lord have mercies. They were the only things I could really sing.

I'm living in the Kansas City area (Lawrence to be exact... KU student) and was wondering if there is any Byzantine masses there? I'm sure there is, but cant find on, and I'm sure one of you will find one in about 2 minutes and I'll feel stupid, but I'll ask anyways. And also, in about 3 months I'll be back in Denver, can you find me one there too? The one I'm use to uses the "Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" I'm not sure which mass that is of the 2 that I read, so maybe you guys could help me out with that. Thanks for all your help and patience.
Pete

http://www.acrod.org is the website for that jurisdiction. You would have to search for a parish using that function.

Here [svots.edu] is the schedule where I am. You are welcome here.

Tony

Thanks everyone for the posts and private messages. My wife & I discussed this last night. Since its already holy week we decided to go back to the Byzantine Catholic parish for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday nights and then go into the city to St. Michael�s for matins and liturgy (since someone who has been there recommends it). After Easter we will start visiting the different parishes close to us. We really don�t like the idea of leaving the Byzantine Catholic Church but with all these reforms it is no longer home to us.

I'm very interested in hearing some of the details surrounding these "radical" changes which have taken place inthe Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy. I've been a Byzantine Catholic since birth, attend religiously (all puns intended) and can't seem to put my finger on anything "radical." Details would be greatly appreciated. I can only pray that my heart and mind have not ignored such changes.

Saint Michael's, New York, is a church, is Catholic, and uses the Byzantine Liturgy. Does that not make it a Byzantine Catholic Church? Anyway, have a lovely time for Pascha, and light some candles for us. Incidentally, you should have no trouble parking at that time of night. I suggest bringing food, not only to be blessed, but to share with the assembled multitude.
Incognitus

//We are looking for a parish that has the traditional schedule (the 12 gospels on Thursday night,//

When did the Good Friday Matin service w/ 12 Gospels get switched to Thursday evening? The theme of Good Thursday is the institution of the Eucharist. Good Friday is the Passion; hence, the Passion Gospels on Good Friday - followed by Royal Hours. This is the traditional schedule. When, BTW, does the parish celebrate Thursday vespers with Liturgy? Should our bishops drop the traditional Eucharistic celebration with the washing of the feet to read the Passion Gospels too?

// and the resurrection matins and divine liturgy on Saturday night).//

Does your parish NOT celebrate Resurrection Matins with Liturgy on Sunday morning? Saturday evening is the time to celebrate Vespers. If Divine Liturgy is to be celebrated, it is the Liturgy of St. Basil. Sunday morning's liturgy after Paschal Matins is the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy. You might be merging the two liturgies together.

//Our only other requirement is that the services be mostly in English.//

You have a lot of demands.

//It would also help if the singing was good.//

Then YOU lead them! I'm sure YOU can do better. Maybe import a professional choir in place of the people? Then you can be entertained and satisfied AT THE SAME TIME while the typical parishioner can sit in the corner of the temple silenced.

//We are even willing to consider a nonslavic church. We would prefer a Byzantine or Greek Catholic but are willing to try an Orthodox Church.//

Do you eat at cafeterias a lot? Or would you rather all liturgies be as easy as a Chinese menu to satisfy your taste?

Cantor Joe Thur

As you ponder your many choices of churches and services to attend, remember in your prayers those members of the forum who are a long distance from their beloved church and will not be able to partake of any Eastern services. They are keenly feeling their isolation this week.

Barbara

Shame on everyone for taking the opportunity to recommend OTHER parishes and even OTHER Church communions.

May I ask if everyone would quickly recommend another woman to a man who may be experiencing marital problems?

Maybe our fellow poster can't accept ANY church that doesn't conform to his likings? He obviously has Good Friday Matins with the Passion Gospels mixed up with Holy Thursday evening for some reason.

If Vespers was not followed by St. Basil's Liturgy and then followed by Resurrection Matins (for those wanting to hit up the church in the evening besides Sunday morning), what other way should the church celebrate Saturday services? There are MANY who, for some reason, prefer NOT to show up on ANY Sunday morning for church services - even Pascha! And I hardly doubt that those parishes that do celebrate the vesper-liturgy-matins combo servicee also celebrates matins and liturgy on Sunday morning ... unless the pastor tends to more than one parish.

I have been cantoring the combo-service for several years and it DOES NOT take three hours! Unless a parish has a very sloooooowwwwwww singing cantor. Pascha is a Resurrection service, not a funeral dirge.

Our Byzanting spiritual theology (Can I approach this from an Eastern Christian perspective?) looks upon our condition in life as a sickness. The Church is a hospital and our Lord is the physician, a divine physician. Are we playing the part well as assistant physicians by not even considering what may be really ailing our fellow poster who has many needs to be met BEFORE (read: conditional) he steps into church? Yet, many have taken the opportunity to promote the brand of church denomination, and of course, possibly for self-serving reasons other than remedying our poster's particular sickness.

Many of our poster's complaints are ill-founded. Has he ever checked our Typicon? Our proper tradition when to celebrate Good Friday services, especially Matins? He seems to be talking through his nose.

If Matins is celebrated on Holy Saturday evening/night, it is because of those folks who will go to the nearest Latin church instead to get their obligatory Saturday Mass in.

I would like to invite our fellow poster to join the cantors and demonstrate how it is really done, and done well. He always has an invitation, no?, to step up to the plate.

Cantor Joe Thur

//Vesperal DL on Thursday Morning
Passion Gospels Thursday Night
Vespers of Friday at 2-3ish
Lamentations Friday night
Vesperal DL of St Basil Saturday either in the morning or afternoon
Matins/Liturgy of Pascha at midnight Sunday night.//

That is one class act of anticipation done willy-nilly. Vespers in the morning? Matins in the evening? Wow!

//This is how most Orthodox do it.//

And they have absolutely no right to wag the finger at other churches for discombobulating liturgical services.

//Besides, most people have to work these days even on Good Friday so having the Passion Gospels Thursday night is much better anyway.//

When does one celebrate the services of Holy Thursday when Good Friday services are being celebrated in its place?

Joe

6) If parishes are having Resurrection Matins before sunset then they can have Vespers before noon.

Tony,

Some parishes do NOT celebrate Matins the evening before on Holy Saturday. Those who come for vespers with Liturgy (St. Basil's) miss out.

Some pastors serve two or three parishes. For those celebrating Paschal services the evening before, Matins will still be taken AFTER vespers and liturgy. The liturgical day already began the evening before, so when exactly is morning?

It seems, for what Anastasios wrote, that the Orthodox can celebrate their services anytime they want. But does that mean that the "liturgical day" now begins the evening before during the Great Fast on weekdays? Saturday-Sundays are different than weekdays of Lent, unless the Orthodox have now adopted the Roman method of calculating the beginning and end of a 'liturgical day.' In some cases, 'anticipation' of liturgical services are still technically correct; in other cases, it is arbitrarily moved to another day. Would the Orthodox celebrate Pre-Sanctified Liturgy on Wednesday the evening before or that morning?

Joe

Perhaps with all this searching for the "perfect" holy week liturgy, vespers, royal hours, matins et al, it might well explain the LACK OF PEOPLE attending at our Byzatine Catholic (and Orthodox) parishes. We're all too busy looking elsewhere!!!! I just got back from our holy Thursday vespers/st Basil divine liturgy where the attendance was noticeably down from years past. I wouldn't blame it on the singing as I was the cantor. (All humility aside, I know the singing wasn't the reason).

Everyone seems to want a "show" rather than to participate in community worship.

This goes back to what the parishioners expect out of liturgical services. I grew up with a wonderful choir and cantors, midnight Paschal matins and the obfuscated order of liturgical services. I think the order of liturgical services makes more sense the way they are arranged more recently. Not to say that I wouldn't like to participate in resurrection matins at least partly in Slavonic.

In this day and age I am happy to hear any voices joining in with me. ( and I haven't be officially a cantor more than 5 years, though I grew up in the BC church).

There are other issues that I think that may be contributing factors in this 'wanderlust' though I won't go into that at this time as it would only serve to get me into more trouble than I am already in as a cantor who dearly loves OCS (old church slavonic) especially for Pascha.

Enough ranting for now, I must sleep and prepare for Good Friday.

Steve

(pardon the spelling errors, 20+ hour days don't help)