www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholics as "Orthodox Lite"

Dear Brendan,

You raise an important point that I've wondered about for years.

The Orthodox have no "training" as do Eastern Catholics in liturgical legalism. By this I mean Eastern Catholics often see a hierarchy of what is "more important" liturgically. The Divine Liturgy is the pinnacle which often gets translated as "the only really important church service."

Today, people in my age group may not attend the Service of the 12 Passion Gospels on Thursday night because "Great Friday Services are more important" (and those Gospels ARE part of Great Friday's services!). Others will skip the long services of the Epitaphion to come and just kiss it later on.

And who has time on Holy Saturday to attend any services when there is all that Easter food to prepare?

We can learn a great many things from the Orthodox about attending liturgical services FOR THEMSELVES and the great spiritual benefit they contain for us . . .

Alex

Not to state the obvious, but Vespers or Vigil services usually start while the sun is still up, and conclude after the sun has set. I have always enjoyed that fact, rather like visible participation by the Almighty as the service progresses. And, of course, the services reflect that reality as well, in "O Gladsome Light" or "O Joyous Light", or whatever translation is used. Maybe that says something as to why I miss these services, and attend occasional Orthodox ones as a result. They add another dimension to our worship.

Dear Jim,

What you say is why I believe that liturgical reform in Eastern Catholic churches should basically be about bringing what we do in line with what our Orthodox counterparts do.

I love that old "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter." "Nothing added, nothing subtracted, nothing changed."

Alex

I think one reason one can find more Orthodox parishes than Byzantine Catholic parishes celebrating Vespers and Matins is because there are standards established by their heirarchs requiring such (though I don't think that's the only reason...they are expected by the people). It seems to me that I was told that one Orthodox bishop requires either Vespers or Vigil on Saturday night and Hours on Sunday before Liturgy. Perhaps there is someone here who might know the exact detail on that.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave, great points (and I also commend you on your site, great job!).

Until Vespers and Matins become part of the liturgical life of the people, of the parish, they will be unknown and unappreciated. It is not just up to the bishops, although they certainly bear the brunt of the responsibility.

I don't think any Ukrainian Catholic or Ruthenian priest would be disciplined for following the official Ordo Celebrationis which has been blessed by Rome, which has the rubrics for Vespers and Matins. I think while the bishops do need to foster the Divine Praises, there is also some onus for action at the parish level.

I don't think any bishop would try to suppress extra services if established in a parish, at least not in most eparchies I am familiar with. Some eparchies such as Chicago have Vespers in their cathedrals every Saturday night and major feast days already.

Diak and Alex,

Thanks for the kind words. It's been a real learning experience. The more I discover about the liturgical richness of our Church the more I realize how little I really know! Please feel free to email me privately with suggestions on improvement for the site. I am trying to make it pan-Byzantine Catholic to include elements from the Melkites, Ukrainians and Ruthenians (and other Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions if they have online resources) and ecumenical by including the best from various Orthodox jurisdictions. Please feel free to email me privately with suggestions for improvement.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Diak wrote:

You're right and I didn't mean what I wrote above as criticism of our bishops. Orthodox may have such standards (if anyone has particulars on such, please post them) but it's all because they are expected. If a parish does not have Matins or Orthros before Liturgy they will at least have Hours. Vespers (or Vigil) will almost always be served. Just telling our parishes they have to start doing something new without some preparation and catechesis would probably do more harm than good IMO.

Another factor: many of our parishes do have several Liturgies already on a weekend due to the large size of these parishes. Ideally, the parishes should be smaller but that's not always a workable situation. I know there are a few Orthodox parishes that have more than one Liturgy per day. The OCA parish in Los Angeles comes to mind. How do such parishes handle the Divine Praises in such situations? Also, in such very busy parishes how can this be done without adding too much to our very busy priests? Lay-led Hours or Reader's Vespers?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave --

Here in Washington the Cathedral of St. Nicholas (OCA) has two DLs on Sunday -- one in English and one in Old Church Slavonic. The Divine Praises are served in the form of an All-Night Vigil on Saturday evening, which is bilingual (I'd say 75% English, 25% OCS). The Vigil is pretty well attended -- I'd say typically half as many people who are at each of the Sunday morning liturgies attend the Vigil.

The ROCOR parish here in Washington (the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist) also has two DLs on Sunday, one in each language. On Saturday, however, rather than combining the Vigil, they serve two vigils back-to-back -- one in English and one in OCS (with different clergy). That parish is more lop-sided Russian than is St. Nicholas, so while the English Vigil seems to be fairly thinly attended (at least compared with the bilingual vigil at St. Nicholas), the OCS vigil is well attended.

Frankly I've been astounded at the numbers of folks who attend the Vigil/Vespers services on Saturday evenings in the local OCA parishes here. Coming from the Melkite Church, it was quite an eye-opener. The Melkite parish I came from serves a full liturgical schedule, with Vespers every Saturday and Orthros before liturgy every Sunday. While the liturgies are jammed -- often 200 or more people, which is more than almost any of the local Orthodox parishes on a given Sunday, Vespers typically attracts 10 or fewer people, and Orthros about the same for much of it. In the Orthodox parishes, at least the OCA parishes around here, the ratio of people who attend Vespers/Vigil as compared with the number who attend the DL is much higher. I don't know why that is, but it just is, and it is interesting that it is so.

Brendan

Dave asked about places where Vespers/Matins or Vigil are required. The OCAs Diocese of the West's bishop expects these services to be held prior to Sunday Divine Liturgy. The Phoenix OCA parish usually also has Vespers the evening prior to a weekday feast, but not Matins. I understand their bishop's preference to be for the churches to have Vigil,instead of Vespers the evening before and Matins immediately prior to, Divine Liturgy. Vigil can last almost 3 hours, however, and the local parish community is mostly elderly and prefers not to drive at night, so they do Vespers & Matins instead. Where Matins is omitted, frequently the Hours (first, third, & sixth) are done by a Reader etc. prior to the Divine Liturgy.

Dear (Super) Dave!

Reader's Services are truly a wonderful thing to have in Church, but I think they only occur when a priest isn't around.

The serving of the full round of the Divine Praises on the Lord's Day (that some people refer to using the pagan expression, "Sunday" )is a liturgical rule of the Church.

It is just that there are Eastern Catholics that don't feel bound to it . . .

The emphasis in Eastern Catholic Churches has been "how many Divine Liturgies can we fit in on any given Lord's Day." My parish will fit in four or even five Divine Liturgies.

The Orthodox have always felt that the breaking of the rule of one Divine Liturgy per altar per day in Eastern Catholic churches was done for less than spiritual reasons.

In any event, this practice does tend to underscore the Western view that the Liturgy is all that is important in Church.

Alex

Dear All:

That last few posts raise the question of where does one draw the line between practicality and adherence to the rules. For instance, Alex's point about the "one day, one alter, one liturgy" rule. Where you have a large parish with limited space, really, what do you do? It is true that ideally parishes should be small enough to accomodate everyone at one DL, but reality is reality. (For example, the recent wave of Eastern Eurpoean immigrants has left my parish bursting at the seams for three liturgies every Lord's Day.)

People want to fulfill their Sunday obligation, but you can't very well put out a "no vacancy" sign out front of the church building or, better yet, leave them standing outside in the dead of a Toronto or Chicago winter.

The other point is one I have wondered about for a while - how much discretion does and should the pastor of a parish have in deciding what services will be celecrated and when? Of course, much will depend upon the jurisdiction and the particular eparch. Still, maybe cannon law addresses this issue, I dunno. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Yours,

kl

There is usually one altar per Liturgy per day in the East.Even Nevsky Cathedral in Paris operates that way. The second liturgy is in a crypt chapel there. Larger churches establish a second altar complete with its own iconostasis in order to celebrate a second Liturgy the same day.

Removing pews creates more space, of course.

Another more time-honored solution is to create a new mission congregation. Orthodox parishes tend to be more family-sized, and less corporate-sized as a rule. That seems to be generally preferred.

The one liturgy per altar per day rule us waivable by a Bishop. Both the OCA and ROCOR Cathedrals here in Washington use the same altar for two liturgies virtually every Sunday (one in English and the other in OCS).

Brendan

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
As a priest, I believe that I must express that some Byzantine Catholics are more Tridentine "Lite" then even "Orthodox Lite." I just had a family leave the parish, after I heard their tirade regarding the parish being "too Orthodox."! I have been the pastor of this Parish for ten years, yet I have never seen this family at any adult enrichment class. And their children and grandchildren rarely attended ECF when they were younger.

In their tirade they complained about the iconscreen (Now over 20 years old), Vespers for Sundays and Holy Days ("Why can't we just have a Mass?"), no Divine Liturgy on the week days of the Great Fast (They never attend weekday liturgies when they are offered.) They even though I should have started Stations of the cross by now "since they are very popular".

One never wants an extended family to leave theparish, but I must honestly confess, i will not miss them. I have preceeded every change with extensive educational opportunities and Liturgies. But there certainly are some people who will "Run after preachers who tickle their ears.'

FR. VLADIMIR

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father,

This reminds me of the parishioner who said this about a troublesome duo who eventually left us:

When our Lord told us to love everybody, I'm sure He didn't have them in mind . . .

Alex