www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholics as "Orthodox Lite"

Bless, Father Vladimir!

You could have been describing my OCA parish with its new, young, very traditional priest. He has introduced more services during Great Lent than we've ever had before, reserving one weekday per week for all-Slavonic services at the request of many of the "elders" who *still* don't attend weekday services anyway. And then the poor priest gets criticized by these same "elders" for the changes he's introduced! There is no satisfying some of these people, Father, unless one wants to put them in the driver's seat.

OrthodoxEast

Father, bless!

Unfortunately you have described an all too often occurrence in our Greek Catholic parishes. There are still many people, even after extensive catechetical efforts, who still reduce the entirety of the Byzantine tradition to "mass". I also have run across plenty of the same type you describe. And it also seems to be true that many of these vociferous types are the ones who won't attend many of the extra services anyway.

I thank God we have pastors like yourself willing to take the time and effort to not only return to more authentic Byzantine liturgical tradition but also willing to make the catechetical effort to prepare for those restorations.

When you reach out in charity to those such as you have described, try to make them understand the legitimate tradition, and stay in complete fidelity to the mind and desire of the Church in restoring our authentic liturgical tradition, you have done all that can be reasonably expected.

Father,

Unfortunately this is very true... especially in the Pittsburgh area. Over the years I have witnessed some individuals clinging to a vision of the Byzantine Catholic Church that resembles pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism.

Only a few months ago I had a discussion with a very nice lady who has an aversion to icon screens, although she is gradually coming to terms with the fact that her parish now has one.

What I find to be even more common, especially among those who were raised during the height of latinization, is a "split spirituality." For example, a few years back I was teaching ECF classes for children, and I asked if any of them had icons in their homes. None did. When I inquired with an older gentleman who had been in the parish for decades about this, he informed me in a "matter of fact" fashion that icons are for church, and statues are for home!

It is apparent that a great deal of catechesis is still needed.

Anthony

In any Christian community, there will always be those who want the fullest possible cycle of liturgical services. And there will always be those who want to know "what is the minimum I must do." There will always be those who make every possible use of the tremendous treasury that the Church has and is to deepen their faith and spiritual life. And there will be those who don't. And there will be those who get stuck on the outward forms and miss the fact that the forms are doors through which we pass to the One standing behind the doors beckoning us to relationship with Him.

And there will be all kinds of variations and more than likely many other types. we need to deepen our own relationship, using all that our particular church offers and lead others by example as well as by word and persuasion.

And in the end, there will be, too, those for whom any change is the same as abandoning Christ; and those for whom anything old is silly baggage.

I've seen lots of all these types and I sympathize with the clergy who have to navigate parish communities while still trying to preach the Gospel and nourish their flocks with the Mysteries.

BOB

theophan<<I've seen lots of all these types and I sympathize with the clergy who have to navigate parish communities while still trying to preach the Gospel and nourish their flocks with the Mysteries.>>

I've seen these types too, Bob, both in the Unia AND in Orthodoxy. The criticism of such clergy that I've heard in the Unia is that they are "toooo Orthodox!" And yup, you guessed it, the criticism I've heard of such clergy in Orthodoxy is that they are "tooo Orthodox!" It's a no-win situation for these poor priests!

OrthodoxEast

Dear OE, I just had a priest friend change Orthodox jurisdictions over the very issue you raised. He tried to reinstate a very full liturgical schedule for his parish, but received a negative response from some of his parish and later his jurisdiction.

There's a gallows-humor remark I've heard some of my clergy friends use when they run into all these things. They often remark that the Good Lord Himself would probably be asked to leave by some of the parishioners or by the church board.

I guess being configured to Christ by ordination also calls for some cross carrying as well.

One thing I would like to suggest is that each of us here take a priest by name, either secretly or tell him you have done so, and commit to the Lord that you will pray for this man as he goes about his life and his ministry. Pope John Paul II asked Catholics to do this some years ago. I've got a list I pray for each day. Just ask the Lord to give the priest what He knows the priest needs for health of soul, mind, and body. Then let God be God to give whatever is needed.

BOB

That is great idea, Theophan. But don't forget the deacons also, they are often right on the front line, especially in matters of liturgy.

I happened to think of some more examples once I'd posted. My present parish lost a large number of people when our pastor was changed in 1987. We had had a few parochial vicars who competed to see who could get us in and out the fastest. We had one guy who could get the Liturgy over with, commune 250 people, and preach in 20 minutes. There was no time for daydreaming.

Of course, human nature being what it is there was also the Christmas Eve when I was standing in the foyer greeting people with our pastor and we overheard one woman remarking that she'd come to this Liturgy because she wanted "to get it over with so she could enjoy Christmas." Had to grab the pastor's arm when he started to tell her she shouldn't have bothered, she'd missed the point of it all anyway. Did get him cooled down and back on track, though.

I guess that's what makes life so interesting for me. The multitude of attitudes is fascinating. I often meditate on what my Orthodox mentor said so long ago: "if one can't stand the time in church now; if the Liturgy and the services are too long, how is one ever going to stand eternity with an unending Heavenly Liturgy?"

Wishing all my brethren here a blessed experience of the Lord's saving work this week in whatever Orthodox or Catholic parish you find yourself. Remember that in the Communion of Saints we are all witnessing and experiencing these Mysteries together. May the Lord enrich each of you with Himself. A blessed Pascha whenever you celebrate it.

BOB

Posted by Theophan:

Wishing all my brethren here a blessed experience of the Lord's saving work this week in whatever Orthodox or Catholic parish you find yourself. Remember that in the Communion of Saints we are all witnessing and experiencing these Mysteries together. May the Lord enrich each of you with Himself. A blessed Pascha whenever you celebrate it.

BOB


Dear Bob,

In the Communion of Saints, thank you.

May the Lord bless you with the same!

Steve

Back atcha, Bob!

Tomorrow is the 5th Sunday of Great Lent (when we commemorate St. Mary of Egypt) for me, but I don't know which calendar you follow. In any case, even if it is a little early on either calendar, let me be the first to say to you: CHRIST IS RISEN! A JOYOUS AND HOLY PASCHA to you and yours!

OrthodoxEast

This is by way of a follow-up, to say that often we think we know what's going on, then find out we didn't have enough information to form that conclusion. (Another way of putting it is to say, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, soon everything begins to look like a nail.")

Our priest had been working days and providing as much liturgical support as he was able to manage. Once the parish was able to provide full-time financial support, he was able to expand the service offerings. We now have Divine Praises Monday, Tuesday, and Friday mornings; Divine Liturgy Wednesday evenings, Vespers Saturday evenings, and Third Hour and Divine Liturgy on Sundays. For Holy Days we have Festal Vespers evenings, and Liturgy the following morning. There is quite a learning curve involved with all this, since we hadn't been having the Praises or Vespers on an on-going basis before. We are 60 families of Ruthenian Byzantines, and these services appear to be meeting the needs of the greatest number of parishioners, from what I can see as a cantor.

So, perceptions about how Orthodox or Catholic a parish or church is, can be misleading. Sometimes it boils down to economic limitations and the willingness of parishioners to stretch themselves further to grow spiritually. I note with interest that our Vespers service has a prayer that says, "Preserve the Catholic and Orthodox Faith." That is what my Byzantine Catholic parish is doing . Please pray for our continued growth.

Thanks, Jim, for the report. Maybe it's time for me to move back to Arizona? After all, it's getting quite cold here in Oregon now.

For those whose winter vacation may take them to the metropolitan Phoenix area...check out St Thomas Byzantine Catholic in Gilbert, Arizona! While in Arizona you might also visit their sister parish in Phoenix (St Stephen and home of our Fr Deacon John Montalvo).

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Correction Dave,

St Thomas is our "daughter" parish.

I know it is off the subject but how do I handle a situation where we have an Orthodox Family coming to our Religious Education classes and wants their children to receive communion in the Latin Church?
Stephanos I