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#67524 11/10/04 08:18 PM
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I really don't know how to respond to Alex's post.

I'll make a few clarifications. I did not have a deliberate intent to offend. I made statements because I believed them. I did not intend to offend anyone. I apologize strongly if the result of my posts was offense but my intent was not to offend.

It hurts me to be told that my intention was to offend. What kind of a person intends to offend other people?

I probably am a bit 'reckless' in my opinions. They're strong and I say what I think. I should be more charitable in how I phrase things.

But I never intended to offend anyone.

It also hurts me to see the post refer to me as "friend."

I realize that some of my comments were hurtful and I apologize for any of the hurt I've caused.

I read Alex's post and I thought, what more do you want from me?

I admit that I've judged. One of my primary faults is judgmentalism.

But I think that I've been judged.

It hurts to be judged. Admittedly I was very hurt by this exchange. During prayer last night, one of the things I asked forgiveness for was making someone feel like I felt.

If my judgmentalism has made any of you feel as bad as this judgmentalism makes me feel, I thoroughly apologize.

I suppose this post doesn't sound sincere since I state that others were judgmental too.

I'm not a saint. I'm never completely sincere. But I am being honest in how I feel. Maybe my feelings of hurt were unjustified.

Regardless, I apologize and I don't know what else I can do.

#67525 11/10/04 08:29 PM
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Jennifer,

I never wanted anything from you, ever.

You used the term "delusions" in connection with me.

If I ever said anything like that to anyone, and apologised, I would be sure to refer to it, rather than do a general "one size fits all" - sorry if that is not what you intended.

I also offend people. And when I do offend, I do it deliberately, with full intent.

I'll admit that.

And I'll also admit that when I apologise.

Perhaps I'm being silly. You speak very much like my wife would and this is also how I would speak to her if we were having an argument. Perhaps that is also what gets me here.

But, in this matter at least, I feel I'm under no delusions.

I'm obviously not with it today, sorry for my uncharitable spirit.

You are obviously a very spiritual person who is seeking the truth.

I will stop being a pain on the way.

Alex

#67526 11/10/04 08:31 PM
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Dear Jennifer:

What to do?

Please continue posting and participating as honest as you are doing now.

Neither the Administrator nor Alex, or the members of this Forum, are what you perceive them to be. Initially, perhaps, but you have to bear with us: we, sometimes, exhibit "left hook" tendencies and knee-jerk reactions.

Keep on coming, Counsellor!

Amado

#67527 11/10/04 09:00 PM
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Jennifer wrote:
Regardless, I apologize and I don't know what else I can do.
I recommend making a fresh start. Positive posts are much more fun to read and, in the end, contribute much more to the discussions and may even help resolve some of the issues.

Above all, pray before composing a post. Then, when you have composed it, read it through for anything that has a hint of uncharitableness. Then, pray again before actually clicking on the �Add Reply� button.

#67528 11/10/04 09:02 PM
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Dear Jennifer,

I apologise and withdraw everything I've said here as being out of order.

Especially the bit about you sounding like my wife . . .

That was really nasty on my part!

Alex

#67529 11/10/04 09:13 PM
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Now that the fire has been hosed down and the smoke is slowly dissipating into "oblivion," can somebody reset the button, please!?

Amado

#67530 11/10/04 09:42 PM
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I made an appointment with an Orthodox priest to discuss converting. I think that's the direction I'm heading now.

I've been studying the Church's teachings on the papacy for years and I realize that I concluded years ago that I don't believe the pope has universal jurisdiction. I also don't believe that the pope is infallible.

I was born and raised a Catholic and love the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose one reason why it's easy for me to be harsh about the RCC is that it feels almost like my family.

I think my purpose here was kind of a last ditch effort to stay with the Church that I see as my family.

I've come to accept that what I believe about the papacy cannot be reconciled with communion with Rome. So as I see it, my options are either to leave communion with Rome by converting or change my mind about the papacy.

I think that I'm not a person who does 'ambiguity' well and therefore I take Rome at her word. I've come to believe that Rome expects those in communion with her to accept certain teachings. I don't accept those teachings so cannot remain in communion with Rome.

#67531 11/10/04 09:47 PM
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To All,

I agree with Alex. This lady came in here with guns blazing. She pretty much tried to offend just about everyone she could. I even wonder if her initial post on this thread is for real or is she looking for a "pity party". If you have ever looked at my profile I'm just part of blue collar working America but I know when I'm being snowed. The Administrator asked her on more than one occasion to tone it down a bit and she ignored that and opened more threads intending to twist everyone up. I've enjoyed reading all of this stuff, but if it is all for naught then she has done us all a disservice. I am willing to forgive and forget, but I would suggest she talk face to face with some real people about all this stuff before dumping on us.

Bill, Who now feels the need to go to Confession.

P.S. - To Logos Teen, great post, America needs a lot more young men like you!

#67532 11/10/04 09:53 PM
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Dear Jennifer,

You posted your last post before I posted mine. If it's for real then I say God be with you and I will pray for you. I apologize if I offended with my above post, but enough is enough.

Bill

#67533 11/10/04 09:57 PM
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Jennifer,

God bless you on your journey. I pray that your decision is the right one for you (although my from point of view, I don't really see how it can be "right," but I'm sure you understand this).

It's better, I would say, to have a devout Orthodox believer in one of the Orthodox Churches than to have a Catholic believer in the Catholic Church who refuses to accept every and all Church Teachings. So, as far as that goes, I do believe your move is honest.

Life is a continuing process: days go by, years go by, we learn and forget, and we often change our minds. One decision does not set in stone a path we must follow for the rest of our lives. While I urge you to take your conversion very seriously, I hope that you continue to expose yourself to sound reading material and information.

If I, a convert to the Catholic Church, may offer a humble opinion, something that I wish I'd been told much earlier: conversion is *not* the end of the learning experience, but is rather only the very first baby step of a marathon.

So, good luck...and I hope to see you posting around the Forum again!

Garrett/Logos Teen

P.S. And Alex, where are your manners?! wink

#67534 11/10/04 10:06 PM
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Jennifer,

I don't see any problem with holding the opinion that the Pope isn't infallible. He's not - exccept in some extremely specific and limited circumstances. Super-graced circumstances, if you will.

(There are some chemical elements that also don't exist except momentarily, under special circumstances..)

I guess it comes down to a leap of faith that such moments are possible. But ya know, if we can come to grips with the idea that bread and wine can become God on a regular basis, occasional bouts of grace-induced infallibility should be a snap to accept....

Mebbe I'm terribly lazy, but I really don't worry a whole lot about it. The infallibility thing comes up so rarely in actual practice, I can't get too excited about it. As for Who The Pope Is In Charge Of, well, it's evolved over the centuries, and I hope it eventually evolves back into the primacy of honor it once was.

Just my devalued $.02


Sharon

#67535 11/10/04 10:44 PM
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Dear Jennifer,
The opinions you post are a lot like mine.

I would be pleased if you were to reconsider this decision and visit our parish again. I promise to be nice smile

In some respects our perspectives are almost identical, some times I feel that I have one foot in the Catholic Communion and one foot out of it, I don�t really know where I belong now, but I love my parish very much, my pastor is great and the liturgy is outstanding, we know our shortcomings and we are working at them. This keeps me grounded there for the moment but I feel the same pull in both directions and it brings me anguish, not joy as one might expect.

If you are truly convinced of the path you must take, go with God, but do not be a stranger to us. This is not a message board for Catholics as such, it is a message board focused on the Eastern churches of all types, and your opinion counts.

In Christ Always,
Michael

#67536 11/10/04 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Alice,

Yes, and Jennifer should use the term "deluded" only to people she absolutely does not like!!

Or not at all . . .sniff . . .

I think I'll keep to my own site for a while and wait for the interior hurt to subside! smile

Alex
How could *anyone* not like you, Alex? confused
I have it on good word around here that you are very well liked! wink
Now stop sniffling, stand up straight, and smile! smile smile smile

Alice

#67537 11/11/04 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by Bill from Pgh:
To All,

I agree with Alex. This lady came in here with guns blazing. She pretty much tried to offend just about everyone she could. I even wonder if her initial post on this thread is for real or is she looking for a "pity party".
Hello everyone.

Some of you may remember me, I used to post here quite a bit a few years ago.

I have to say that I wish you would all give Jennifer a bit of a break. As far as I can tell, she is trying to find her way, and seems to me to have solicited opinions from all of you about various things that have been troubling her and/or occupying her mind spiritually recently. I do not think she came her to pick a fight, to insult people or otherwise to instigate anything. I do not think it is a good policy, personal or otherwise, to treat people who come here asking hard questions, from within your own church, with hostility. Please try to be more understanding that when an individual is undergoing a process of spiritual uncertainty, it can be an awkward time.

Thanks, everyone. I hope you are all well.

Brendan

#67538 11/11/04 02:46 AM
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Dear Brendan,

You are the one I used to call the "Navigator?"

Welcome back - if at least for a while.

I agree that hostility should never be shown to those who struggle and ask questions.

As you know yourself, if you are the Navigator, that I not only assisted those who sought out information about Orthodoxy, but referred a number to you yourself.

However, Jennifer was simply hostile toward others here and to me in particular.

Perhaps I misread her, but offensiveness is simply that on the face of it.

Are you here to defend someone who is a potential Orthodox convert? If you are, then your call for greater openness to us here is really not as genuine as you would make it out to be.

Jennifer rejects the papacy presumeably because it is autocratic.

My only point to her was that there can be bishops, even Orthodox bishops, who can be autocratic as well. Not to mention Patriarchs.

You could show yourself to be even-handed by calling a spade a spade rather than running to the defense of a future Orthodox Christian precisely because she is that.

You wouldn't do that if she was going to reaffirm her earlier Catholicism, I'd bet. wink

Sorry to be a bit harsh, but I've had enough of this bleeding-heart mentality that has is informed by its own agenda.

The years have changed you - there was a time you wouldn't be this way.

Alex

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