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That is an apples and oranges comparison to the situation being talked about given how the two churches approach this subject. Certainly in that instance it would be wise to inquire as to why they were seeking to commune out of their faith and instruct them, if they were unaware, as what their own church teaches and what communing outside of it means. Fr. John says the following:

Fr. John is not a rigorist. The OCA is not a rigorist jurisdiction.

Andrew

Andrew, I am having difficulty understanding why anyone would be afraid of or dissuade someone approaching the priest to ask him to decide a legitimate and serious canonical matter?

I appreciate your convert zeal, but it seems perhaps more prudent to submit to and allow your presbyters and hierarchs to make that call, to counsel, to prayerfully consider all issues of canonical propriety as well as economia. That seems Orthodox.

Again, the bottom line, which is not arguable, is that the priest and bishop should and will decide, not you or I or anyone else.

And no one should ever be dissuaded from approaching an Orthodox priest to question him about any issue of faith or practice. He is a big boy, as is his bishop.
Deacon Diak

This is exactly why the presbyter should carefully discern after counsel with the person in question, and is for him and his hierarch to consider. It is not for you to judge intent on any other soul than your own.
Deacon Diak

You know what the church teaches and believes. Starting with the intent of bending the rules is not right, and this has nothing to do with being a convert to the faith or being born in to it.

Andrew

Believe - yes, I believe our Lord is quite clear on judging the intent of others. I myself fail on that one, often.

And I also believe the presbyters and bishops of the Orthodox Church have been given the authority to discern and decide such matters, and the faithful who wish to be in communion with them accept that discernment and those decisions.

If they don't like them, they can choose not to be in communion with them. That seems to be the bottom line.
Deacon Diak

They have, and these same presbyters and bishops have also quite clearly stated that the church practices closed communion. That should also be accepted and discerned by anyone who approaches the chalice.

Andrew

Andrew, I believe it is standard practice to approach the priest prior to receiving the Mysteries. Anyone who has any question at all regarding the Orthodox Faith should do likewise.

Why should anyone be disuaded from approaching the priest for counsel? That's his job (one of them). He can handle it, or has the responsibility to call his bishop if he has questions. His discernment, not yours.

Your circular and rhetorical reasoning does not in any way detract from the bottom line, that anyone who has a legitimate question of faith or practice should definitely approach the priest for spiritual aid in discerning such questions.

It seems rather to question the discernment of the presbyters and bishops, which is quite disturbing, disallowing apparently any use of situational episcopal economia. Once again, it is for the priest and bishop, not Andrew, to decide. Apparently some have already decided to not agree with you.
Deacon Diak

The question is not if it is appropriate for a priest or bishop to discern who or who not to commune. The question is knowing the rules and what the church believes about itself (because the rules have been set down), is it correct to approach and ask for communion when you know you are asking the priest to bend the rules? This is not just a trivial issue, a priest is told he will be judged by how he guards the Lamb. You are potentially putting the priest in a difficult position.

I can only say I would not do such a thing, nor would I knowing that Catholics hold a different faith approach one of their presbyters seeking communion.

There is not much more I can say.

Andrew

etc., etc...

Amado,

Peace! Be still!

You are completely overreacting to my request for clarification of the rules and canons that would apply in my particular situation. Please do not distort my very clear meaning. If you read my statements without undo passion, you will see them for what they are, instead of for what they are not.

My simple request was to clarify what rules would apply as I make my pilgrimage to the shrine of this great missionary saint of Holy Orthodoxy. I had believed that there would be great spiritual benefit to participate in the worship and (IF allowable) receive the Sacred Mysteries. I did not see this as a right to be siezed (ala Andrew's contention) or as a rebellion against ecclesiatical authority on both sides (which you seem to infer). I submit myself entirely to my Eparch and my spiritual father, both of whom are faithfully Eastern and faithfully Catholic. I also desire, out of charity, to respect the rules of the Orthodox hierarchs regarding reception of the Mysteries - WHICH IS the reason for my initial question.

Your contention that I somehow am distancing myself from my Latin Catholic brothers and sisters or that I perceive Latins to be somehow inferior - OR am acting as some sort of rogue recipient of Holy Communion, randomly beating down the royal doors of Orthodox Churches (ok - you didn't say "rogue", but you implied it ) is more than a little insulting...

But I gladly forgive you, bro.

Gordo

I'm sorry - are you saying that we hold to a different faith than the Orthodox? It is doubtful that your OCA hierarchs would uphold that assertion.

We hold to the same apostolic faith, the last time I checked. We also celebrate the same mysteries goverened by hierarchy that share the same claim to apostolic succession. As a convert, you not surprisingly overstate the differences between our churches. The sticky wicket of 1870 aside (which is no small matter), our differences have more to do with temporal matters than eternal ones.

Peace,

Gordo

CaelumJR,

Catholicism and Orthodoxy may be quite close or quite far apart depending on ones perspective. However we do not share the same faith, or we would be in communion. You for instance I would imagine believe things about the nature of the Papacy that the Orthodox do not. That is a critical distinction, even if one lone difference in a sea of commonalities.

I am not attempting to overstate our differences, but to simply emphasize the reality that is before us. The eucharist is the supreme act of shared faith. It is not a step to unity, it is the fruit of unity.

It is true that I am a convert. I hope that is not being brought up as a way of discounting what I'm saying. (I'm also not OCA, not that it really matters)

I hope your trip is enjoyable and beneficial, and that you find peace with however you decide to approach the situation regarding attending the liturgy.

Please remember your unworthy and sinful brother Andrew in your prayers.

Andrew-

I think you've missed two important points here:

1. in an Apostolic Church, ultimate authority for what goes on belongs to the Bishop; it is he who has the right to decide who to admit for Communion. Generally, communion with his patriarch or other groups of similar churches limits his flexibility to what he agrees with them.

So yes, a Bishop has every right to admit a Catholic for communion if he wants (which is not to say it happens......)

2. the Catholic Church holds that Orthodoxy is the same faith, but that the Bishops are not in communion. No other reading of Vatican II and the Cathecism of the Catholic Church is possible.

This is why, in the mass booklets, you see that "Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Assyrian Christians ...." are permitted to receive the Holy Mysteries in a Catholic Church. This is why one Byzantine Catholic parish I know regularly communes and absolves Orthodox, and even allows one to serve behind the altar.

Of course, the Orthodox generally don't reciprocate this. So, Catholics visiting Orthodox parishes are probably well advised to be cautious.

Andrew,

Thank you for your very thoughtful note. I certainly do not want to UNDERstate our differences either. The reason why I sit here as a Byzantine Catholic and not a member of the OCA is because I believe in the importance of those differences.

With many converts, I have noticed a tendency to overstate the differences, even to the point of saying that the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is one of essence, and not one of particular circumstance or historical emphasis.(Personally, I think such a position is absurd.)

As to my pilgrimage, I will certainly remember you. I ask for your gracious prayers as well. For my part, I have no other intention than to be an obedient and humble servant of the Church. (I do agree with Diak's point - the decision is ultimately up to the local hierarchs.)

God bless,

Gordo

Marc, hopefully I do have something of a grasp of the two things you point out.

Certainly the bishop has the right to admit who he sees fit to communion, and he especially has latitude in exceptional circumstances, the breadth of which is largely governed by his standing in the eyes of his peers. I don't think we're talking about exceptional circumstances here however, and the rules regarding this topic are well established and well known.

I think I actually acknowledged this in a round-about way in my reply to incognitus' scenario of Orthodox faithful presenting themselves for communion at a Catholic Church. My feeling is it is an apples and oranges comparison to the reverse situation given how the two sides view each other (meaning the priests are operating from a different playbook when facing a situation like this).

I am also aware for instance that Dominus Iesus refers to the Orthodox Church as a true particular church.

CaelumJR

It�s difficult for me to reply to that because I�m not sure what you mean. I do believe there are essential differences however between the two sides. When converts from the Catholic Church are received in to Orthodoxy they are at a minimum Chrismated, which I think says that the church believes there is a fundamental difference there at some level.

Andrew

I have to wonder what all the fuss is about. Non-Orthodox will rarely be admitted to communion in an Orthodox temple, and that probably is most likely to happen in the tight-knit ethnic commmunities where the reality is that such distinctions are hard to make in villages with one church and intermarriage so common.

I cannot imagine anyone so bold as to approach the chalice in a community not their own without even attempting to speak with the priest beforehand. If they get turned away they would have only themselves to blame. Speaking to the priest would clarify everything.

In any case, if I were an Eastern Catholic I would be in total agreement with father deacon Diak. If you care about it at all pray in your own tradition first, even if you are not in full communion.

+T+
Michael