www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eve as co-damnatrix

Dear friends,

Let us remember that we are not in this whole mess because of Adam alone. Adam is indeed our "damnator", the one who placed us into a state of damnation by his disobedience. Likewise Christ, the New Adam, is our "redemptor" because he placed us into the state of salvation from that into which Adam fell.

But let's not forget those ladies, gentlemen! Who set up the whole scenerio for our daddy Adam to fall. Was it not Eve? Did she not tango with the devil and present the fruit to Adam. While St Paul credits the fall to Adam (Rom 5:12) let us remember that he was greatly assisted by Eve. Eve therefore can be seen as "co-damnatrix" with Adam the "damnator".

Likewise, Mary is the New Eve and she sets up the situation for our redemption. She says yes, raises the Godman and assents to his humiliation and crucifixion for our salvation, know that his pain will produce our redemption. So while she is not responsible for redemption per se, she like Eve is closely tied to it. Thus as Eve is "co-damnatrix" so Mary is "co-redemptrix".

With this articulation, I have no problem with Mary as Co-Redemptress.

yours in Christ,
Marshall

Slava Jesu Kristu

Forgive me, Marshall, but "co-damnatrix" is just as unneeded as "co-redemtrix." I understand both to be misleading albeit theologically appropriate (somewhat).

Dmitri

Eve also ate of the fruit. Mary did not die for our sins. Calling Eve "co-damnatrix" is accurate because she had an equal part with Adam in the Fall. Mary's role in redemption is far from equal to that of our Lord's

Columcille

Dear Marshall,

It is interesting how Mary has been compared to Eve in salvation history.

Some western writers even compared "Eva" with the "Ave" of St Gabriel during the Annunciation and how the latter reversed the former etc.

"Co-damnatrix" would be inappropriate since Eastern Christians don't accept that we inherit the "stain" of Original Sin, even though humanity did fall in Adam's fall. We inherited death and the tendency to sin in our nature etc.

You are showing your Augustinianism here, Big Guy!

Alex

Having read the arguments in favor of proclaiming Mary "co-redeemer", I offer the following conclusions based on the same logic:

Joseph is co-redeemer because he said yes to the angel that told him to take Mary as his wife.

Pilate is co-redeemer since he is the one who sentenced Jesus to death. Without that death sentence, we don't have salvation.

The men who drove the nails are co-redeemers since they are the ones who drew the blood that washes us from sin.

Simon of Cyrene is co-redeemer sinced he helped carry the cross.

The Theotokos most certainly played a crucial role in our salvation, but a SECONDARY role. Proclaiming this dogma would be confusing and borderline heresy. There is absolutely no need for it.

Columcille

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Columcille ]

Dear Columcille,

As you are going to be Orthodox, what do you care, Big Guy?

Maryam is way ahead of all those people as the Orthodox liturgical tradition so richly celebrates since the Word of God took flesh from Her directly.

No one stands that closely to God.

But I agree that everything that needs to be said and should be said of the glorious Mother of God has already been said in our liturgical tradition.

Alex

Alex-

I attack heresy no matter where it rears it head

True, those people I mentioned are not as intimate with God as Mary. However, the argument put forth says that Mary is co-redeemer because of Her secondary role in Salvation(if she had said no, Christ would not have been born), not Her close proximity to God. I'm saying that if Pilate had not condemned Jesus, he would not have died. If nobody drove the nails, blood would not have been shed.

I can't see any possible good coming from this pronouncement. But as you rightly point out, before long it won't be my problem

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Which jurisdiction are you joining, Big Guy?

I hope they allow for SOME Celtic innovations . . .

Alex

I'm being received into the OCA. My parish priest is also a Son of Ireland, and a convert. So you see, we are packing the parish with Celts. I have been treated very warmly by everyone there, even by they whose last names don't begin with O' or Mc.

Columcille

I don't think that Co-Redemptorix is heresy. I just think it's just poorly defined or is a lousy concept for our feeble human minds who can't understand mystery which is way beyond us.

But the folks are right, Mary did not die for our sins, Our Lord did. He's the male unblemished Lamb.

Just because the world wouldn't be if it wasn't for her "yes" doesn't mean that she saved us. She only merely allowed herself to be a vessel for God's incarnation into Flesh (God made Flesh). She only submitted to His plan of salvation, but she isn't the co-redemer.

I just think it's safe not to say that she's a co-redemptorix.

I don't disagree with it, but at the same time I don't agree with it.

What? What a lame anti-thesis! :rolleyes:

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Welcome, brother.

Axios

Thank you. Glad to be here, well...almost here

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Yes, the OCA is an excellent jurisdiction with a solid intellectual witness to Orthodox theology on this continent especially.

Their theologians speak a language that everyone understands and greatly communicate the theology and wisdom of the Eastern Church to the West.

They also aid greatly in the efforts of Orthodoxy itself to return to its own patristic sources after some centuries of western influence.

Good show, Old Boy!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Adam and Eve are tied for first place in a parade of many sinners. It has been a long tradition in the battle of the sexes to blame women for getting us men in trouble. Not that they can't be a bad influence, but more often, they civilize us male barbarians.

If you don't believe me, check out your local prison. A large majority of the convicts are men, especially for violent offenses.

God could have come to us by any means of His choosing. It seems to me that His choice to be a Baby Boy, born of a woman, was directed at the need to instruct and guide men to improve their conduct. Similarly, Jesus' selection of only men to be among the twelve apostles, was directed toward getting men straightened out.

I really don't think we need to muddy the water by adding titles for people we all know by name.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marshall:
[QB]. . . But let's not forget those ladies, gentlemen! Who set up the whole scenerio for our daddy Adam to fall. Was it not Eve? Did she not tango with the devil and present the fruit to Adam. While St Paul credits the fall to Adam (Rom 5:12) let us remember that he was greatly assisted by Eve. Eve therefore can be seen as "co-damnatrix" with Adam the "damnator". . .


Just the opinion of a non-theologian.


Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

This is a very odd conversation for Eastern Christians to have.

Did not our Lord pull Adam and Eve out of the Abyss and lead them to Paradise as is depicted on the icon of the Descent into the Abyss?

Is it appropriate to even be debating the application of such a term to someone who was redeemed by Christ?