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Dear Friends,

All this reminds me of a pre-Gorbachev joke in the USSR.

The reason why the USSR was always short of toilet paper is that when they came to count, they counted heads only . . .

Skewed figures all around.

Alex

In light of all this discussion -- the ripple effect of statistics -- DOES ANYONE KNOW THE STATS FOR ACROD, also known as the JOHNSTOWN Jurisdiction?

Since ACROD is so close to the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, I wonder what their stats are. Increase? Decrease?

Thank you advance to anyone who knows!!

So, we are all convinced that we don't know what the heck we are talking about when it comes to statistics. Even if we did, what does that have to do with Evangelism? I wish we would stay on that topic.

Dan lauffer :rolleyes:

I think there is an apocryphal book somewhere called Ecclesistatistics. I don't kow how true it is, but I heard the number who bought it is highly doubtful.

Could someone comment on these things or aren't we allowed to?

1. Could the bishops encourage several of our smaller churches to unite? Three make better matches than two. Besides, three is good Byzantine theology.

2. Will our bishops ordain married men?

3. Will our bishops insist that each parish have a sound stewardship program?

4. Will we ask our deacons to develop evangelism programs in each parish?

5. It seems possible to me to find out more information than is apparently available now about why people left in such large numbers. Some suggestions have already been made but do we know? Can we ask those who left why they left? I don't see why not but their may be some reason. Once we find out why they left we can address those problems.

6. Our bishops seem to be giving all of us good examples of holy living. That is obviously a plus. We can all build on that.

7. Perhaps the most important strategic thing our bishops can do is to ask every church to find out from it's newest members why they came. It is always good to emphasise our positives and to try to strenghten our weaknesses. If a parish has no new members in a year perhaps that parish should be united with two that have.

Dan Lauffer

Interesting discussion. I wish I had had more time this past week to participate. I�d like to take a crack at Dan�s questions.

1. Could the bishops encourage several of our smaller churches to unite? Three make better matches than two. Besides, three is good Byzantine theology.

Yes, they could. I�m not sure as to which smaller churches to unite but, from my perspective, it makes more sense for one priest to be the pastor of both a Ruthenian and Ukrainian parish in the same town than to have a Ruthenian priest be the pastor of two Ruthenian parishes in two different towns as well as a Ukrainian priest also pastor of Ukrainian parishes in the same two towns.

2. Will our bishops ordain married men?

Yes. But not anytime soon. Parma has a couple of candidates so probably in 4-6 years.

3. Will our bishops insist that each parish have a sound stewardship program?

Maybe. And only if parishes are merged across cultures in areas of dwindling populations.

4. Will we ask our deacons to develop evangelism programs in each parish?

Only if someone comes up with a successful model that can be used in our parishes. This assumes that we have good quality liturgy in the parishes (i.e., prayerful, dynamic, good singing, and etc.).

5. It seems possible to me to find out more information than is apparently available now about why people left in such large numbers. Some suggestions have already been made but do we know? Can we ask those who left why they left? I don't see why not but their may be some reason. Once we find out why they left we can address those problems.

A good part of the losses can be attributed to the bad economic conditions in the areas where our parishes were located (the blue collar areas of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio and etc.). Also, a sizeable number went to the Roman Catholics because we taught them that they were Catholic first and Byzantine second. We did not instill in them that Byzantine = Catholic just as much as Latin = Catholic. This was/is especially true when a Byzantine marries a Roman. The Byzantine Church is seen as an ethnic Church while the Roman Church is seen as the �American� Church. Further, there is just the attraction of joining the majority Church (which is Roman Catholic).

FWIW there are an incredible number of Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) who now worship in Roman Catholic parishes. I suspect that the reasons for their losses are similar to our own.

6. Our bishops seem to be giving all of us good examples of holy living. That is obviously a plus. We can all build on that.

Definitely.

7. Perhaps the most important strategic thing our bishops can do is to ask every church to find out from it's newest members why they came. It is always good to emphasise our positives and to try to strenghten our weaknesses. If a parish has no new members in a year perhaps that parish should be united with two that have.

This is an excellent idea. One can accept that we will loose parishioners in economically depressed areas as people leave them to move where the jobs are. But there are an incredible number of unchurched that we need to invite and bring into the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Administrator,

"there are an incredible number of unchurched that we need to invite and bring into the Byzantine Catholic Church."

Indeed so. Many have not come to Christ and His Church because they simply do not believe that we are serious. Some of those have tried the Protestant mega churches and found them to be nearly soulless. They have much sound and fury and not much else.

Our newest members are one of our best resources to find out who might be open to trying a Church that really is serious about tradition and the meet of the Gospel.

That suggest, as you have already noted, that we can deliver on the promise.

A model for evangelism? Contact Father Thomas Loya.

Dan Lauffer

PS Father Michael, how's that beard coming?

Thanks Fathers for posting on the non-triviality of counting. Some comments on a couple of Dan's nice ideas.

I think you are wise to look for three. This consolidation of parishes is often dicey; I think it's nopthing short of amazing how well things worked at your parish, Dan. Maybe three was the secret.
available now about why people left in such large numbers. Some suggestions have already been made but do we know? Can we ask those who left why they left? I don't see why not but their may be some reason. Once we find out why they left we can address those problems.

A good part of the losses can be attributed to the bad economic conditions in the areas where our parishes were located (the blue collar areas of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio and etc.). Also, a sizeable number went to the Roman Catholics because we taught them that they were Catholic first and Byzantine second. We did not instill in them marries a Roman. The Byzantine Church is seen as an ethnic Church while the Roman Church is seen as the �American� Church. Further, there is just the attraction of joining the majority Church (which is Roman Catholic). that Byzantine = Catholic just as much as Latin = Catholic. This was/is especially true when a Byzantine

FWIW there are an incredible number of Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) who now worship in Roman Catholic parishes. I suspect that the reasons for their losses are similar to our own. [/QUOTE]

My take on this is similar to the administrator's. First there is the re-diaspora. The fraction of the kids with whom I went to parochial school that still live in Johnstown - or even PA/OH/NJ is very small. From my perspective, however, the idea of Byzantine = Catholic was well understood. But a problem was BC=catholic and RC=catholic, means that BC=RC. Thus, mixed marriages with RC were very common, even in the first generation; the quick result that ~half of each generation goes RC. In the era of big we might still grow among ourselves, but in families averaging 2 children, we simply will not.

And we lose more that half. The other point made by the administrator: BC=ethnic; RC=American. One thing that is probably very true of our forebearers here, is that they acted to deliberately escape a millenium of marginalized minority status, and were not about to be marginalized here. So there is a trend to RC in mixed marriages with BC husbands or upon relocation. These folks probably rarely did a canonical transfer, but just permanently camped at RC parishes. One simple way that counts might have been "inflated", by the way, is these canonical BC's were counted; and there are contexts in which that counting is entirely appropriate. These folks may be ones to approach first in the formation of new missions for example. Years ago at St. Macrina's in San Mateo, there was a list of all canonical BC's from Monterery to Sacramento - all potential parishioners and in some sense church members.
On the other hand at some point one understands that there aren't coming back. And maybe that realization occured in the nineties. (I think JT is right, that it would be nice to have a GACP.)

We have other problems that are particular to minorities. For example, if you get into some "fight" at a RC parish, then you pick up and go to the church down the road. Or if the choir is unbearable, or if there is a dearth of youth activites. For us - so sparse - going down the road with the exception of a few regions, just impossible. More losses.

Overall, the point about numbers is this. Revulsion against scandal, rampant secularization, gross misfeasance are probably not major factors in the decline. Rather it is largely related to peculiarities of our minority condition. Most of these will not change (e.g., it hard to imagine that we will revert to arranged marriages within the tribe). What this means is that we absolutely must have evangelization as a major priority.

Per Dr. Alexei D. Krindatch of the Institute of Geography, Moscow, Russia, ACROD (Johnstown jurisdiction) has:

11,753 full members ("older than 18, paying regularly annual church membership fees and officially recorded as members by the church.")
- data per ACROD's HQ.

20,000 adherents ("all baptized Orthodox, who are well known to the local parish and attend church services several times a year ... and their children.")
- data per full member number, avg. church attendance vs. feast day attendance, number on jurisdiction's mailing list, newspaper mailing list)

I don't know what I expected but I had thought that ACROD was more numerous than that.

Does this mean a total of 31,000+ ?

How does this compare with 1940 or 1950?

I think I'll grow a beard!

Michael

They used to claim 100,000.

Back in the 1990s, in the days of their "Harvest 2000" diocese-wide evangelization program, they admitted that they had only about 15,000.

Our dear Fr. Administrator is correct in all of his answers. Yet he overlooks one very �fertile� ground. Places where all of the children of our parish�s up north are moving to, like Florida and elsewhere.
Believe me, if I had every person within my 4 county area which is about a 60 mile radius from my parish who ARE Byzantine Catholic join my church, I would quadruple in size from my 50 families (and I am not fudging that number, but it�s not all large families, as I consider one person a family!)
But, we have many people interested in our churches down here some Catholic and some not. Some come for a while, and do not return. We have an aggressive follow up with visitors to our church, announcing them at the end of Liturgy, and having their name and number to call or send them a thank you for attending. Many, like other posters here have said that our Byzantine Church demands �so much� when they are used to RC Lite, as the radio manager where I do my weekly Sunday broadcast refers to us as. We�re Catholic Heavy; the Romans are Catholic Lite in his eyes...less filling�..
Others are frustrated Roman Catholics who would not be satisfied anywhere unless they got their way in all things��.and I will stop at having Novenas for them! Although our Benediction service, even though adapted from the Romans, is quite beautiful, not that I have that service, less I admit that I do and be pilloried for it!
And unfortunately, the ones who are Byzantine Catholic and who only come for the Slavic Festivals, Easter and Christmas to hear the respectively familiar refrains for each Holy Day, say we�re too far, or just don�t want to make the commitment anymore.
As far as evangelization is concerned, sometimes the covert kind goes a long way. We give out pamphlets at our Slavic Festivals inviting people to our church, I give tours of our church during them, we have surplus bulletins which are also given out, we have KofC Corporate Communion every third month. We invite retirees clubs to come for lunch and a tour of our church. I�m even trying to get the local Catholic schools to bring their kids for an afternoon recollection in our church. All we can do is plant the seed. But we must plant the seed!
Of course, I also sign autographs for those who have seen me on EWTN.
Come to think about it, why don�t we have �GECN� the Global Eastern Catholic Network? If a nun, starting out in their convent�s garage as a studio, turns their endeavor into a global Catholic network, why can�t we? Media spreads everything bad about the church. It�s high time someone steps up to the plate with some big bucks and we have a Global Eastern Catholic Network. We�d even welcome the Ukrainians to contribute! (Just a joke!) Anyone have a few million to spare? In an age of global, instantaneous multi media communication, our church is in the dark ages in comparison. It�s better than knocking on doors by a long shot.
And Dan, with all this controversy I have started, I already have three day stubble!

Dan,

There are a handful of priests (like Fr. Thomas Loya) who are doing excellent work in proclaiming the Gospel to the neighborhood. What is needed is for someone to put it together in written, detailed format so that others can follow the example. If we don�t have a written model then we wind up with everyone trying to re-invent the wheel.

Admin

Fr. Michael,

Thank you for the promotion to the presbyterate but I am just an ordinary layman.

Actually, I did not overlook the fertile ground of the places where cradle Byzantine Catholics are moving to. I just honestly don�t see us having the clergy resources to begin the new parishes that we could be starting.

Regarding those who relocate they are not going to join Byzantine Catholic parishes unless they happen to settle close by the parish in their new town. For a hundred years we have taught cradle Byzantines that the important thing is for them to go to a Catholic Church. And they do! They join the one closest to them, be it Byzantine or Roman.

At the level of my parish (here in Northern Virginia) I see the children of the founders moving out to the newer suburbs that are 20-30 miles away from the parish. Most don�t want to drive 30-45 minutes on overcrowded roads to get to liturgy so they just go to the local Catholic parish. We really can�t complain because this is what we taught them to do.

The growth of our Church is not going to be in evangelizing transported cradle Byzantines. The growth of our Church is going to be from building and maintaining vibrant communities of prayer that reach out to the local community with hospitality and service. We need parishes that can pray Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy. We need parishes that provide service to the community. We need parishes in which the parishioners are willing to invite their neighbor to Church. Living the Christian Life and living it to the best of our ability is what spurs the interest of others.

Admin

No. The smaller number, 11753, is included in the bigger one, 20000.