www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC.

I thought this was an interesting discussion. I don't know if we can really say what year he was born, but I guess it gives theologans something else to discuss.

Pani Rose

Good News: Jesus Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC.
Bad News: Ussher�s Date for Adam at 4004 BC is Wrong

http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/scriptural-chronologies1.htm

According to The Learning Channel , Christ was born April 17, 6 B.C., and the magi arrived December 19, 6 B.C.

Father Jim,

Welcome to our family (Especially good to see someone older than me, since every year that seems to be a rarer thing ).

I've heard April dates advanced before, I think most recently on a fairly well done program relative to the Three Magi - forget which channel broadcast it . It certainly makes some sense in terms of the shephards and flocks being on the hillsides, since the tendency, even today, among shepherds in that part of the world is to be ensconced in more hospitable quarters during the winter.

Many years,

Neil

Christ is Born!!! Glorify Him!!!!

I had heard it said that the reason for December 25th was the Christianization of the pagan Roman feast of Saturnalia which occurred on that date. The celebration was one of the return of the lengthening of days after the winter solstice. Saturn was the Roman god of light and the Christians celebrated Jesus Christ, "the Sun of Righteousness." From what I understand, we do not know when--date or year--Our Lord was born, but the Church made some educated guesses after Christianity became legal during the reign of Constantine.

Having a celebration for the "the Sun of Righteousness" makes sense since there seems to have been some sort of winter celebration in many other pagan religions whose adherents later became Christian.

Maybe some of the excesses we see in the commericalization of Christmas stem from those pagan celebrations. Saturnalia was supposed to have been a rather unfettered celebration with gifts, drinking, banquets, etc.

In Christ,

BOB

In his Life Of Christ, Catholic historian Giuseppe Ricciotti stated on p 243 Now Bethlehem was and still is on the edge of a plain, or rather an abandoned and uncultivated tract which can be used only for pasturing flocks. The few sheep owned by the inhabitants of the village were gathered at night into the surrounding caves and stables, but the large flocks remained always out on the heath with some shepherd to guard them. Night and day, summer and winter those numerous beasts with their few guardians formed a community apart that lived on and from the plain.

I've seen other references to flocks staying out year round in the area around Bethlehem, and unfortunately I've noticed a tendency among some Evangelical types who make assertions against a winter birth for no other reason except to attack tradition.

Beside the traditional aspects, I've felt for a long time that there's something very symbolic about a winter birth for Our Lord. For Our Saviour who came into the world to suffer and be rejected, having his birth occur at the worst possible time of the year just somehow seems appropriate.

Dear Theophan,

It appears that the Christian Church, in Her wisdom, superceded pagan holidays with Christian one's. It did the same with saints. For that reason, the churches in Greece dedicated to Prophet Elias, seem always to be on top of mountains, the original place for temples of Zeus.

I recall that the celebrations for the wine festival in Greece, were held around the fifteenth of August. Now the god of the original wine festival was Dionysis, (Bacchus), and he was born of a mother, who had her virginity restored each year. So placing our Theotokos holiday of the Dormition at that time, would be understandable. (If I'm correct in my assumption).

We know that it must have been difficult for the Christians Church to convert a world filled with millions of pagans, accustomed to their own traditions. Christianity had to be highly adaptable.

For this reason, I was always under the suspicion that the so called Protestant 'reformation', had more to do with the culture clash between a large block of Germanic people, that were simply unable to adjust to our Mediterrean traditions.

Zenovia

I have no idea what day Christ was born, and this article has some interesting points. However, please note the source. Robert A. Sungenis is a Catholic convert from Protestantism who has now become a complete biblical literalist. He believes in geocentricism (the belief that the sun resolves around the earth) due to certain bible passages. He also has a number of writings that tend to be truly anti-semitic (but which I note that he denies). In truth, in many ways he has returned to Protesantism: making himself his own magisterium.

So I'm not sure how much credence I would put in this article.

Francis,

As you note, Sungenis considers himself to be the current de-bunker of Copernicus and Galileo. Taken with his anti-Semitism, his suggestions that Father Coughlin was really somehow an admirable figure, and documented charges of plagiarism made against him, Mr. Sungenis' credibility on almost any matter has become extremely suspect.

Many years,

Neil

Just don't ever move south of the equator, or you'll lose the symbolic connection!

Actually, one of my theology professors presented a most intriguing theory for the date of Christmas...

In Greek philosophy, perfection is represented by a circle. The life of the perfect person would also be a circle -- that is, life would end on the same date that it began. We know that Jesus died at the time of the Passover; therefore, his life would also have begun at the time of the Passover -- hence March 25 is the feast of the Annunciation. Nine months later brings us to December 25.

I know that Christianity "baptized" a lot of pagan holidays, but I sure like this explanation a lot better!

If Jesus wasn't born on or about December 25, then John the Baptist wasn't born on or about June 25 (the 24th this year).

Reasons? The Gospel of Luke has John and Jesus being born about six months apart. John the Baptist said of Jesus that "He must increase while I must decrease" - and that's exactly what happens to the sun at the two solstices - it begins to increase at the Winter Solstice, and begins to decrease at the Summer Solstice.

So - Dec. 25 and June 25 (or 24) are actually both reasonable AND scriptural!

I wouldn't say that Christ definitely was not born on December 25, or that it would be completely unreasonable. The scriptural reference of increasing and decreasing is a possible allusion to the June and December dates, but may be carrying it a bit too far as a scriptural proof. The history behind the pope choosing the December 25 date, the seasons it seems shepherds took their flocks out to graze at night, the astronomical signs that appeared at certain times in the sky, and the fact that Herod died in 4 B.C., etc. seem to point more towards the April 17, 6 B.C. date.

Okay, so John the Baptist was born in October, rather than June? Because they do still have to be about six months apart, right?

Also, the Annunciation, currently celebrated in March (9 months before the 12/25 date Christmas) would then need to be rescheduled for July. On the plus side, that would eliminate the frequent conflicts with Lent & Good Friday.

It's all such an intricate web ...

I was told by a local priest that the account from the Gospel of Luke not only puts the Forerunner's birth six months ahead of Our Lord's, but places John's birth in June. Elizabeth conceived after Gabriel's apperance to Zacharias, who was serving during a feast which we can supposedly date to september which would put the Baptist's birth in June and hence Our Lord's birth in December!

Another interesting article that makes a case for Dec. 25th.

Christmas [chron.com]