www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is the Bride of Christ being purified?

The answer to your question begins with two words in turn beginning with "E" - Eucharist and the eschaton.

This "understanding" you so desire - no man can adequately "understand" these profound things in their mystical essence and implications of heavenly reality. These are primarily of a sacramental nature for us - the Church as the Mystical Body in communion through Her Bridegroom, which is effected and made possible, again in a mystical and profound way, through the Deifying Mysteries.

That is what in the end places Orthodoxy and Catholicism in a unique place theologically, through this enhanced sacramental perspective. Anticipation and fullfillment - which is the underlying theme of Revelation as well as all of Scripture - as we live out our lives, and as is manifested to us constantly in our services and our liturgical year.

I believe you, indeed, by your hasty replies noted above, seem to be the one displaying irritation, lack of patience, wanting to leave the discussion, whatever, as those are your issues. I am attempting to reply. Please give us a chance to do so.

My comments about leaving this thread for a bit had nothing to do with you or your post.

I do understand the duel mysteries of eschaton and eucharist. I'm not an Enlightenment philosopher nor a sola scripturist.

I do thank you for your comments.

I'm not sure a further discussion on this topic is of much value. I'll just watch and see.

Dan L

Mr. Lauffer,

So that we can get past your theological opinions, would you be so kind as to offer references to those Catholic teaching documents where the Church is called the Bride of Christ, and then explain for us how you perceive it is that the Church reconciles the Church as the Bride of Christ and the Church as the Body of Christ.

I think the key in this discussion is to stop falsely attributing emotions and intentions to your interlocutors and actually address Catholic teaching, even if you do not know it perfectly.

You know enough, as a catechized Catholic, I presume, to know where to go to find the answers to the question that I ask above. I know that when I was catechizing converts these things were central to our studies.

Mary

After a 1 minute search:

The Church as the Bride of Christ can be found in Lumen Gentium, paragraph 4. I think there's more throughout the document.

P-A,

Could you do everyone a favor as to keep the bantering to a minimum, please post the document or at least a link. I think that would be most helpful to all.

Thank you!
Father Anthony+

Since Karl has posted one and I've already posted two it does seem like an interesting request to ask for more but I shall certainly oblige when I've time. You must forgive me. I'm more proficient at using books than I am the internet. Nevertheless, I will happily oblige.

Mary, may I ask you who seem to have a great deal of experience and consider this question to be crucial to our conversation would you show us where and offer us those passages and give us links to them that show that the Church is not the Bride of Christ and who this Bride of Christ is that the Church writes about so often. Would you please help me and others see how the Church is not both the Body and the Bride of Christ?

CDL

4. When the work which the Father gave the Son to do on earth (9) was accomplished, the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost in order that He might continually sanctify the Church, and thus, all those who believe would have access through Christ in one Spirit to the Father.(10) He is the Spirit of Life, a fountain of water springing up to life eternal.(11) To men, dead in sin, the Father gives life through Him, until, in Christ, He brings to life their mortal bodies.(12) The Spirit dwells in the Church and in the hearts of the faithful, as in a temple.(13) In them He prays on their behalf and bears witness to the fact that they are adopted sons.(14) The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth(15) and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits.(16) By the power of the Gospel He makes the Church keep the freshness of youth. Uninterruptedly He renews it and leads it to perfect union with its Spouse. (3*) The Spirit and the Bride both say to Jesus, the Lord, "Come!"(17)

Thus, the Church has been seen as "a people made one with the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."(4*)

http://www.cin.org/v2church.html

Mr. Lauffer,

It is not intellectually honest to put words in the mouths of others. It appears to me, over time, that is a part of your discussion style and so I will repeat what I asked for from you:

"So that we can get past your theological opinions, would you be so kind as to offer references to those Catholic teaching documents where the Church is called the Bride of Christ, and then explain for us how you perceive it is that the Church reconciles the Church as the Bride of Christ and the Church as the Body of Christ."

The issue has never been whether or not the Church has been referred to as the Bride and the Body of Christ. The issue is whether or not there is such a concept as "corporate theosis" and I have said the Church has never taught a corporate sanctity, nor has she taught a corporate sin, as has been taught in the reformed traditions.

And I asked you to find the places in Catholic teaching where there is reference to a corporate sanctity or corporate sin. Thus far you have done a neat job of dissembling into a discussion on the Bride of Christ and accusing me falsely of saying that the Church is not called the Bride of Christ.That is not my point, of course. It is your deflection of the real issue.

Catholic teaching is that the Church is both sanctified and sanctifying, so it matters not whether one refers to the Bride or the Body of Christ, what matter is that the Church is purified already.

Her members sin individually and enter theosis individually.

AFTER that then one can speak of being bound together in the Spirit and by the Spirit. But that is a far cry from any concept of "corporate theosis" which, in Catholic terms, is a contradiction in terms, for there is not great amalgum of souls.

This is Catholic teaching Mr. Lauffer.

The onus is upon you to show me that what I say is false beyond asserting that what you say is true.

We, as Catholics, need you to show us where the Church teaches either a corporate theosis or a corporate sin.

Blessings.....Mary

Mary,

Do you believe that God is preparing His Bride for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Does this last statement indicate that you believe that all who are in the Church and purified are being prepared for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? You mentioned that Lutherans and Reformers believed that we are the Bride of Christ in a different way than do Catholics. I suggest that you are correct, but could you give details using references and links and the like to show all of us Catholics what those differences are?

CDL

Dear Mr. Lauffer,

You are dissembling again and avoiding my question. That is fine with me.

Blessings....Mary

NB below that the Bride of Christ and the Head of the Body are one. They are the Christ. Note that there is only one human being, fully human, who is called "pure" by the Church: Bride and Maiden Ever Pure. Note that to become one is Spirit with the Bride and the Bridegroom in and as the human component of Church, is NOT what the Catholic Chuch has taught as theosis.

All along in this putative discussion you have been mixing pears and fruit flies, by trying to claim that union in the Body or the Church is the equivalent of the spiritual and theological concept of union with the Indwelling Trinity or theosis.

From the CCC:

The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.[234] The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."[235] The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.[236] The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.[237] "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."[238] He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:[239]
This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."[240] And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."[241] They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."[242]

Dear Mr. Lauffer,

In addition to any of the books of Father Henri de Lubac on the Church, there are six books on Dogmatics by 20th century German theologian, Michael Schmaus that are all at very least still available in used book format from amazon.com might be of interest and assistance to you or anyone here with interest in the Church's definition of itself, and teachings concerning itself at all levels of its existence.

Professor Schmaus was one of the early inspirations to a young Joseph Ratzinger. His books in translation and quite contemporary in language and readily comprehensible. Volume 4: The Church its Origins and Structure would be of particular interest to this thread. In it, Professor Schmaus addresses your concerns directly and shows in great detail from the teaching documents of the Church how each Catholic becomes one in the Body and through the Body, while remaining fully unique as persons in their relationship with the Indwelling Trinity.

There is never any suggestion that we are not called to be one People of God, but that never translates into corporate states of being.

Full and sacramental unity is only ever forged in the reception of the Word.

Theosis or union with the Indwelling Trinity is always unique to each individual person.

The Bride and the Bridegroom are already perfected. The realized but unrecognized Eschaton.

Thanks for your time and input here.

Mary

So, from a Roman Catholic perspective what would that perfecting be called?

Dan Lauffer

Are you asking me what the Catholic Church teaches, Mr. Lauffer?

I don't offer personal opinions when Catholic teaching is at issue.

Mary

Yes, since the Bride is already perfect how does the Church understand what Christ is now doing in the Church?

Dan L