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Originally posted by carson daniel lauffer:
So, from a Roman Catholic perspective what would that perfecting be called?

Dan Lauffer
Catholic Teaching Concerning the Divine Perfection of the Bridegroom and the Bride

Second and expanded presentation in this particular topic thread of the teaching contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST
The Church is communion with Jesus

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.[215] Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you.... I am the vine, you are the branches."[216] And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."[217]

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.[218] As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."[219]

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.
"One Body"

790 Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."[220] This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."[221]

791 The body's unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ's Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."[222] The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."[223] Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."[224]
"Christ is the Head of this Body"
792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."[225] He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"[226] especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them.[227] "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."[228]

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,[229] he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:
Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.[230]
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.[231]
Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.[232]
A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."[233]
The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.[234] The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."[235] The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.[236] The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.[237] "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."[238] He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:[239]
This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."[240] And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."[241] They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."[242]

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Mary wrote:
Theosis or union with the Indwelling Trinity is always unique to each individual person.
Questions to further the discussion:

1. What is the relationship (if any) of individual theosis to the growing wisdom and maturity of the Church's doctrine? For example, the Vatican II teachings build upon and clarify upon earlier stated teachings. In one sense they are a fresh re-statement of theology. But in a very different sense they often build upon those earlier statments. If no, why not?

2. Are there different Eastern and Western aspects of this?

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Is it possible for a person to rebell and be let loose from the Bride of Christ, i.e., His Body?

CDL

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Originally posted by carson daniel lauffer:
Is it possible for a person to rebell and be let loose from the Bride of Christ, i.e., His Body?

CDL
Dear Mr. Lauffer,

I do not mean to nitpick here but this perspective is too passive according to Catholic perspectives on sin.

One is not "let loose" from salvation.

One rejects salvation through the free willed choice of evil rather than of the good.

One is not let loose. One tears one's self away.

Mary

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Originally posted by Administrator:
Quote
Mary wrote:
[b]Theosis or union with the Indwelling Trinity is always unique to each individual person.
Questions to further the discussion:

2. Are there different Eastern and Western aspects of this? [/b]
Dear John,

This is, as you know, a topic in and of itself, but I will say this much:

There is often much too much made of the putative differences between east and west in terms of the prayer of union, and I am using prayer of union in monastic terms, and do not mean to equate the prayer of union directly with perfection, in a one to one equality, but do relate union to theosis which does occur imperfectly in us as we strive for acquired virtue and pray for infused virtue and divinly given purity of heart on this side of the grave.

In the west the Church has always taught that the prayer of union brings us directly into union with the Indwelling Trinity. That teaching among the monastics was ascendent in all orders up until about the middle 1700's. During the period between the mid 18th century and the early 20th century, some of the monastic orders began to teach that union was "mediated"...This is a well documented part of our history but not always readily accessible to the ordinary reader. From time to time, as I have time I will post resources as I find them or unearth them around here.

The Carmelite tradition in the line of both the Ancient Order and the Re-formed saints kept the tradition of unmediated union alive through that period so that there's never been a time in the western Church where the teaching and experience of unmediated union was lost.

There is also far too much made of the idea of "imageless" prayer in the east. But that is grist for yet another topic.

I find these things to be fascinating and have been working closely with such topics with an Orthodox monk and friend for some time now, and he has been pleasantly surprised and excited by the realization that as a Carmelite by practice, I have far more in common with him than not, both experientially and in terms of theology.

Blessings....Mary

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Dear Friends,

Why are we starting to go at each other?

It's depressing and I don't need any more in the depression department.

Why can't we ask each other what we're trying to establish?

If not, I'll help you.

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

Why are we starting to go at each other?

It's depressing and I don't need any more in the depression department.

Why can't we ask each other what we're trying to establish?

If not, I'll help you.

Alex
Is this a mistake in placement for this judgment?

There are some very positive things being discussed here.

Perhaps this note belongs to another thread where there is an argument going on.

Mary

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Dear Mary,

O.K., the Carmelite tradition!

That tradition truly is very close to the Eastern Christian wellsprings of spirituality in a number of respects.

Could you comment on the view that St John of the Cross was a monist?

Are there aspects to Carmelite spirituality today that are monistic?

Alex

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Professor Alex,

Sure, dig right in. I know that you know more than you are letting on, but we are always open to your questions and helpful comments.

Dan L

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Dear Professor Dan,

Well, I thought a fight was brewing and I thought I'd weigh in since I was enjoying the conversation here.

But if you weren't going to fight, then I apologise.

Would Carmelite spirituality be something that you yourself find relevant to your spiritual life?

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Mary,

O.K., the Carmelite tradition!

That tradition truly is very close to the Eastern Christian wellsprings of spirituality in a number of respects.

Could you comment on the view that St John of the Cross was a monist?

Are there aspects to Carmelite spirituality today that are monistic?

Alex
Dear Alex,

Forgive me but because of the way this software threads and the time I have for focused discussion, I plan on remaining with the topic of theosis here. If you would like to start a thread on monism elsewhere, and if I have the time to participate, then we could talk about such things.

John of the Cross is not a monist, btw. Nor is his theology a theology of quietism, etc....

Mary

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Mary,

O.K., the Carmelite tradition!

That tradition truly is very close to the Eastern Christian wellsprings of spirituality in a number of respects.
Alex
Dear Alex,

As I mentioned earlier, all of the cenobitic and mendicant orders of the west lived in full anticipation of unmediated union with God, so that your statement is not simply appropriate to the Carmelite tradition exclusively.

Mary

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Dear Mary,

Yes, certainly!

But is there also not a scholarly Carmelite tradition that looks to Carmel's historic "Eastern roots" quite outside the mendicant traditions?

Also, what is a Christian view of an "unmediated" form of union with God?

Is not everything about Christian spirituality "mediated?"

I'm new to this and am also very focused on Theosis.

In what sense are you using the term "unmediated?"

Also, how would you characterize what the Administrator earlier mentioned with respect to East/West differences of perspective on this?

I have trouble seeing how Theosis/Divinization is reflected in the teachings you cite and how this relates ONLY to the prayer of union.

Theosis is more than the prayer of union and it also goes beyond the unity of mankind with God.

It is about a specific transformation in us, in Christ by the Holy Spirit, as a result of that enduring, deifying union.

I don't see this being discussed in the texts you mention above - could you enlighten me?

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Mary,

Yes, certainly!

But is there also not a scholarly Carmelite tradition that looks to Carmel's historic "Eastern roots" quite outside the mendicant traditions?

Also, what is a Christian view of an "unmediated" form of union with God?

Is not everything about Christian spirituality "mediated?"

I'm new to this and am also very focused on Theosis.

In what sense are you using the term "unmediated?"

Also, how would you characterize what the Administrator earlier mentioned with respect to East/West differences of perspective on this?

Alex
Dear Alex,

This is also a huge topic touching on Catholic understanding of Person and Nature, Essence and Being.

I have no idea where to begin with you since I know nothing of you or your background and I must tell you that my time is limited and so is this forum for truly detailed and threaded discussion.

You can see how your one emotive note has thrown the entire flow of the discussion into a cocked hat. And those kinds of substance-free interruptions are deadly in this kind of format.

I would rather invite you to start this kind of discussion, if you want it to advance in any depth at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/

Blessings....Mary

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Mary,

Yes, certainly!

But is there also not a scholarly Carmelite tradition that looks to Carmel's historic "Eastern roots" quite outside the mendicant traditions?

Alex
Dear Alex,

You will find in interacting with me that I have no interest in what anyone teaches outside of the Catholic Tradition and in that I include the eastern Orthodox Catholic Tradition.

There is more than enough substance in Catholic teaching. If others choose to comment on Catholic teaching, they are quite free to do so. I may or may not give it much if any attention. My time is not unlimited...I know you understand.

Blessings....Mary

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