www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is the Bride of Christ being purified?

Okay, I'm going to jump in here with some requests. Let's let the past go, forget what each of us said and move on. Let's try not to read personal things into the discussion. Let's focus on the topic at hand and not the personalities of those involved in the discussion.

In short, let's keep this Christian in tone.

Fr. Deacon Edward,
Moderator

We struggle with our demons in solitude and come together to break bread and praise the Son of the Living God!!

See you at the table, kind sir!!

Mary

Yes. My apologies.

We have come far afield from a discussion of theosis.

I'd also like to talk about that very real and Catholic incorporation into the Body of Christ as well.

I think the phrase 'corporate theosis' is a bad one to latch on to, but Mr. Lauffer's idea of spiritual incorporation into the Body of Christ is certainly one worth talking about in the context of evangelization and renewal.

Blessings...Mary

Dear Fr. Deacon Edward,

On behalf of Mary and myself, I thank you for defending us!

Alex

Ah...I had missed this John. I am so happy that you've spoken up here.

I have no deep well of gratitude for the fact that you, as owner-Administrator, never once negatively sanctioned those who did in fact speak to me in ways that are not ordinarily tolerated in this Forum, and punished me for loudly denying the false attributions leveled against me and my words over and over again.

You fellows had an Old Boys Hoorah! going here for a while and I was the recepient of the booby-prize.

Never again, friend. Never again.

Blessings....Mary

One of these days, I will be able to say the same about John, perhaps. One can hope.

I have downloaded the Akathists and your article on the lives of the Kievan saints and will read them over the supper hour.

Do you suppose you might be able to help get the discussion on theosis back on track. However much I dislike paring of corporate and theosis, I'd like not to loose track of the spiritual incorporation inherent in a life in the Body of Christ and the earthly communities that should emerge from such a coming together.

Blessings....Mary

Dear Mary,

I'll do my best - but it's difficult dealing with the BC Old Boys here - as you have very appropriately said!

They also come after me sometimes - and for no good reason as far as I can tell!

For me, there can be no better practical description of what Theosis is all about that what you wrote of your struggles in the Prayer Thread.

That, my Friend, is Theosis personified.

A good evening to you!

Alex

Here's a metaphoric understanding of "corporate theosis" that may shed some light on this issue.

According to Paul we are baptized into the death and resurreection of Christ -- that is, we are made members of the Body of Christ. That Body of Christ is, in fact, the Church. Since we are being purified, since we are going through theosis, there is a sense in which the Church herself is going through theosis because we are a part of the Church.

Just as a healthy foot would be affected by chemotherapy used to treat lung cancer, so too is the Church affected by the theotic process through which each of us must pass.

Yet, there is another sense in which the Body of Christ is already perfected because the Body of Christ is Christ Himself. So we deal with a linguistic and temporal problem. From our perspective there is a purification going one because we are being purified. From God's perspective, of course, all has been accomplished and the Church is pure.

Just some random thoughts...

Fr. Deacon Edward

Can you show me where the Church teaches that theosis is an equivalent concept with purification?

If what you suggest is true then there is nothing to distinguish between theosis and kenosis.

In fact the traditions of the desert fathers indicate that it is not necessary for us be purified to experience theosis. A lowly novice may encounter and experience of theosis and it is therein that we find the ancient monastic proscription against comparing yourself with any other.

The experience of theosis is not at all the equal of any degree of the state of purification, or even the process of purification itself. Theosis is a highly individualized experience according to Catholic traditional teachings concerning theosis.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Then what is "purification?"

I've always wondered how we can be said to be purified in this life - is it the same as the experience of "dispassion?"

I can see your point on the distinction between purification and Theosis - the former involves much spiritual effort and the great effects of Divine Grace.

Theosis can be experienced by a single Grace encounter - am I right?

Alex

If you look at The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2520, you will see a good definition of how one goes about theosis in the description of "Purity of Heart" -- that is, the processes are the same.

Actually, there's a big difference! One cannot approach kenosis without first going through theosis (with the exception of Christ who was already perfect; His kenosis was on our behalf).

Since the definition of theosis is to be purified, to be made more into the likeness of Christ one must always experience theosis before one is "purified" which, in the final analysis, happens only after our death. We never "arrive" in this life.

Oh? I wonder where this is to be found. While it is true that theosis is an individual process it is also true that it is a process carried out in the context of a community of faith.

It would appear, then, that our difficulty here is that we do not agree on what theosis or, as the Latin Church calls it, divinization is. Perhaps we should begin there so that our dialog may be fruitful.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Sanctity is not a process, it's a gift, unless of course you are Alfred North Whitehead and in need of a new career, and think that Process Theology is for you.

In the Catholic monastic tradition the prayer of union or prayer of quiet (theosis) is far closer to what happens as we begin to empty ourselves (kenosis) of our earthly passions and take on acquired virtue in the hopes of the eventual gifts of infused virtue.

This is described here in the CCC as follows:

IV. "I WANT TO SEE GOD"

2548 Desire for true happiness frees man from his immoderate attachment to the goods of this world so that he can find his fulfillment in the vision and beatitude of God. "The promise [of seeing God] surpasses all beatitude.... In Scripture, to see is to possess.... Whoever sees God has obtained all the goods of which he can conceive."[343]

2549 It remains for the holy people to struggle, with grace from on high, to obtain the good things God promises. In order to possess and contemplate God, Christ's faithful mortify their cravings and, with the grace of God, prevail over the seductions of pleasure and power.

2550 On this way of perfection, the Spirit and the Bride call whoever hears them[344] to perfect communion with God:
There will true glory be, where no one will be praised by mistake or flattery; true honor will not be refused to the worthy, nor granted to the unworthy; likewise, no one unworthy will pretend to be worthy, where only those who are worthy will be admitted. There true peace will reign, where no one will experience opposition either from self or others. God himself will be virtue's reward; he gives virtue and has promised to give himself as the best and greatest reward that could exist.... "I shall be their God and they will be my people...." This is also the meaning of the Apostle's words: "So that God may be all in all." God himself will be the goal of our desires; we shall contemplate him without end, love him without surfeit, praise him without weariness. This gift, this state, this act, like eternal life itself, will assuredly be common to all.[345]

Dear Mary,

Is not sanctity then BOTH - a gift and a process of becoming?

Is not the latter the constant teaching of the Catholic Church in terms of spiritual struggle to overcome one's passions with the assistance of Divine Grace and the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

My spiritual life is one involving great effort, the admission of constant failure and the discipline of frequent prayer, and other spiritual exercises by way of ascending the Mountain of God.

Sure feels like a process to me!

If there is an easier way, please let me know immediately!

Alex

The discipline of Psalmody, say the fathers, is the sure path to dispassion.

We may acquire that discipline as we may gain in acquired virtue.

But the goal of all of this is to See the Face of God, and it is taught by the fathers and by the Church that we may encounter union with God here in this life and that is called theosis and it is NOT a process, it is a gift, and it is not at all dependent on anyone's degree of perfection.

There is no easy Way of Perfection.

Blessings....Mary

Even as we speak back and forth in an effort to come to some understanding of the Catholic Tradition of theosis in both east and west, it would be good not to loose sight of what Diak began early on in this discussion.

Unity in the Church has always been a unity of communion, a sacramental unity, an outward sign, a liturgical sign.

Unity or communion is the sacramental font of all those bound together in the credal brotherhood of Christian life and prayer, through communion, the celebration of Eucharist.

There really is no need to blend or try to merge the highly individual experience of union with God, or theosis, with this very real and visible sacramental union that is an outward sign of the Kingdom for all nations under heaven.

Blessings...Mary