www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology When and how may we oppose the Pope?

Dear Admin,

Thank you for your well-reasoned explanation.

If the Roman Curia is having problems "letting go of the steering wheel" to the Eastern churches then I see only one complete solution.

When East and West reunite then the Church will have hundreds, maybe over a thousand
more bishops from the East to leaven the whole Church of Christ. Just think more Eastern bishops in the Roman Curia and influencing the next ecumenical council!! The Roman lung is overburdened. The Church needs the East to breathe with both lungs.

Until that becomes a reality, I think the Eastern Patriarchs and bishops need to continue to demonstrate what Archbishop Joseph Tawil, of blessed memory, said, "The courage to be ourselves."

Peace,

Paul

Dear Administrator,

"Just as a woman is called to submit to her husband . . ."

You aren't married, are you?

If you are, could you let the single men on this forum know what part of North America they could travel to to find a wife who would feel called to submit to her husband in anything?

Alex

Alex,

In one brief statement you have summarized the entire problem with Eastern / Western relations!

Admin

Dear Friends,

Just a comment on the Congregation for the Eastern Churches.

This bureaucratic unit of the Vatican has really no reason for its continued existence - it is an anomalous left-over from the hey-day of uniatism that needs to be permanently consigned to the garbage heap of ecclesial irrelevancy.

This congregation, we should remember, first began as a Vatican department for the evangelization of pagan peoples way back when.

When the Eastern Catholic Churches were being developed then, there was no question but that Rome would control ALL their internal affairs and that the view prevailed that formerly schismatic uniates were on a similar level with pagans etc. That is where Rome placed our forefathers initially.

This Congregation later developed into a more refined bureaucratic tool that ensured that Eastern Catholic Churches were enabled to have Rome's way with them.

Amado's point on Eastern prelates is one Ukrainian Catholics especially are familiar with.

Rome's historic approach here has been to appoint bishops that are truly Latin "yes-men" who then carry out the orders from the invisible "on-high" guys.

The Ukrainian Church still has a superabundance of Basilian and Redemptorist hierarchs in its ranks.

The so-called "Eastern prelates" are often more papal than the Pope himself - a sad commentary on our Churches indeed.

The existence of the Eastern Congregation is Rome's formal and stubborn refusal to give full vent to its rhetoric on allowing Particular Eastern Churches to fully govern themselves.

If the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome wished to find out about each other, they can initiate their own synods without the centrist control from Rome.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church and its patriarchal movement has suffered much from the Eastern Congregation that has often juxtaposed what the Ukrainian Catholic Church desired for itself as being in conflict with what the "Universal Church" desired and similar old-style Roman rhetoric.

I respectfully call into question a number of Fr. Deacon Ed's assumptions here as well.

To be in communion with other Churches does NOT mean that we give up our freedoms as Particular Churches at all - if that is what the Father Deacon intended to say.

If that is what happens, then we shouldn't be in communion with Rome.

As a matter of fact, we have been struggling with Roman overlordship for years.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church, Paul, has had its hands tied by the Vatican's Ostpolitik with respect to Moscow for years. Any movement toward its exercise of its Particular Church rights, guaranteed by the Vatican Council, was thwarted.

And they were thwarted not by the Vatican directly, but through orders given to our own bishops and priest-monks. It was two priest-monks who were ordered by the Vatican to tell Patriarch Josef Slipyj that his dream of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate could not be realized and had not the approval of Rome etc.

What Rome was ashamed to say to the Holy Patriarch-Confessor who spent 18 years for his communion with Rome, that our own readily agreed to say.

But the Eastern Congregation should have gone the way of the dinosaurs long ago.

It is an enduring testament to Rome's rhetoric not matching with its practice.

We can and should choose to ignore the Eastern Congregation, pretend as if it isn't there - and this applies to all Eastern Churches. Perhaps it will go away like a toothache - in time.

Fr. Deacon Ed's point about the Eastern Catholic Churches being "small" isn't one.

The Eastern Catholic Churches aren't a special Eastern branch of the Latin Church - sorry Fr. Deacon but this is how you've come across. Forgive me if I've misunderstood you.

The Eastern Catholic Churches are still part of the "Christian East." Our communion with Rome hasn't totally cut us off from our Mother Orthodox Churches, or at least that is how St Antony Khrapovitsky once characterized us.

We are Orthodox in communion with Rome, and we think of ourselves as Orthodox in every meaning of that term, including our communion with Rome.

We are therefore not so many few millions of people in the eyes of the CAtholic Church where many more millions are Latin.

We are part of the many, many millions of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches that make up the "Christian East."

We have every right to govern ourselves as such without intervention or overlordship from Rome, just as the Autocephalous and other Orthodox Churches do.

If Rome doesn't see that, then whatever it has said in its documents remains on the level of well-meaning policy. Rome therefore isn't yet ready to take seriously the Orthodox East, as it isn't even ready to take us seriously.

Forgive me for speaking my mind.

Alex

Alex,

You write: Anytime there is an agreement between two people, say a husband and a wife, there is a necessary surrender of some freedom to the other. For example, a married man is not free to date some other woman -- a freedom he gave up when he married.

For our Churches, we do surrender certain aspects of our freedom in order that the greater good of communion be maintained. Where I see a problem, and what I think you are referring to, is when this surrender is one-sided. Rome must also surrender some of her freedom for this communion of Churches. This, of course, is not happening in any significant way.

What we retain as Churches sui iuris is the right to disagree with Rome on matters that are internal. Yet, at the same time, we need to recognize that sometimes it is we who are paralyzed. I'll give one example. When the Melkite Patriarch Maximos was dying, the Melkite Church was effectively without a leader. Our own internal policies dictated that the synod of bishops was to appoint an administrator. They did not do this. Eventually, after many requests from Rome that this be done, Rome intervened and appointed an administrator -- and all agreed that it was a wise choice. Yet Rome should not have had to intervene -- we should have done that ourselves.

This is certainly not to say that Rome should always intervene, but it suggests that we need to look to our own house and make sure it's in order before we complain about another's.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Fr. Deacon Ed,

Right on, Big Guy!

I mean, er, yes, you are more than correct in your explication and articulation of the subject matter at hand . . .

Sorry if I sounded combative, but, as you know, the deacons used to be bouncers in Church and get the catechumens out before the Liturgy of the Eucharist began.

You must be tough, then, so I didn't mince words .

God bless,

Alex

Regarding the rights of the Eastern Catholic Churches...

The Eastern Bishops should just do what Eastern Bishops traditionally do. Like ordain married men. Like appoint and ordain their own bishops.

Then, when some Latin prelate begins to make trouble for them, the Eastern Bishop should just look him in the eye and say "Union of Uzhorod" (or Brest-Litovsk, as appropriate). Then say "Alexis Toth". Then walk away.

Dear Alex,

Don't ever be concerned about disagreeing with me. The last time I checked ordination did not grant me any form of personal infalliblity. In fact, just the other day, God and I were discussing something and I was pointing out to Him where He was wrong...

Bouncers? Nah, that role was left for the deaconesses -- the gatekeepers. They were the ones charged with determining who belonged and who didn't after the deacon told the catechumens to get out and order the deaconesses "The doors, the doors!" which was for them to guard the doors. At that point the deacon escapes back into the Holy Place!

Edward, deacon, sinner and former 90-pound weakling.

Dear Father Deacon,

You are too wonderful for words.

But I always thought, and I think everyone would agree with me, that the Deacon is the real backbone of the Church.

There is also that joke about how Byzantine Catholic priests change lightbulbs, you know . . .

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Glory to Him Forever!

I just love the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" view of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It is so true .

Would it be right for an Eastern Catholic to receive the Holy Eucharist in an Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) church?

Adam

Dear Adam,

It would be best to speak to the priest first and only approach the Mysteries in an Orthodox Church with his blessing.

You can expect to be turned down in many cases, however . . .

Alex

Dear Alex:

You said:

I always thought that the Congregation for the Oriental Churches has the task of being a unifying link with the Eastern Catholic Churches to foster their growth, safeguard their rights, and maintain the Eastern Christian tradition alive and whole in the Catholic Church, along with the liturgical and spiritual patrimony of the Latin Church.

(All, I presume, acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the sign of communion for the universal Church.)

In addition, the Congregation has exclusive authority in the following regions: Egypt and the Sinai peninsula, Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia,
Southern Albania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Turkey and Afghanistan.

His Beatitude, Ignace Moussa I Daoud, is seen as a primary exponent of the ancient and glorious Oriental Churches.

Unless there has been a shift in its mission, I believe your wishing the accelerated demise of the Congregation is just temporary, brought about by the "Ukrainian situation?"

AmdG

Dear Alex:

Further, you stated:

I am unsure whether you have revisited the present set-up between Rome vis-a-vis the Eastern Catholic Churces as regards "self-government":

I think the appropriate way of "changing" the set-up would be for the affected Particular Eastern Catholic Church to have the foregoing provisions of the Eastern Code amended, or repealed.

Or, drastically I suppose, sever communion from the See of Rome.

AmdG

This weekend my choir sang its first Liturgy. The majority of the members are Greek Catholic (80%) and we were invited to sing parts of the liturgy in the Ukie Orthodox Church here in Brazil. It was very nice to see some old Babas (Grandmas) crying while we were singing. Than after some time some of my choir members aked me if they could recieve communion and I didn't know how to answer them and all of a sudden I felt very sad and a certain weakness fell upon me, I knew that the Orthodox Bishop would have given them communion,(He's a nice guy and respects us Greek Catholics). If I had gone, all the men would have followed me (25 men)but I didn't. I really felt small at that moment. What did I do? Was it right?
Can someone help me?
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

If you didn't have express permission from the Orthodox bishop to attend Communion, you did right not to approach the Mysteries.

Alex