www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

Here's specifically what I wrote:

"And the diocese of Parma's handling of the retirement of St. Mary's veteran pastor, the late Father John Kurty, and the closing of St. Mary's aliented lots of other folks."

Frankly, I don't know what the story is and I never expressed a personal point of view of view. Father Kurty's retirement and the closing of the old church is still a sore point with some St. Mary's Chicago veterans. It's a fact of that parish.

But even if I did agree that Father Kurty's retirement was mishandled, why the heck would I apologize to you? The bishop is responsible for it, not the successor parish and not you. I believe you were a Methodist pastor at the time, so I don't think you had any responsibility for the retirement of a Byzantine Catholic priest.

Besides, in that case, I was responding to a question you asked specifically of me. You didn't like my response and went ballistic, and you still continue to attack me in an aggressive and personal way.

Again, I wish you well in your journey. Hey, I'll even turn the other cheek so you can whack that one with a pew, as well.

--Tim

Dear Dan,

Thanks for the blessing! Sorry for getting in the middle of your discourse with Tim.

In Christ,
Alice

Hritzko

Hmm well you have given me plenty to comment on there

First your Hotel - yes we do have some very stylish places at equally stylish prices

Believe it or not - I have met Kyr Pavlo . He served Divine Liturgy on the Saturday Morning in the UGCC Cathedral in London.

However first things first :-

The Frday Vigil - was in the ROCOR Cathedral in Harvard Gardens - wow that beautiful blue dome and the large Gold Cross on top - fantastic when seen in the dark [ as it was when I was there] . The Vigil was in their Crypt - with a lovely Baptistry . The Iconostasis is not yet 100% finished - the Deacons Doors were still without Icons but there were lots of Icons everywhere else. Needless to say I stood the whole time there Oh what did surprise me was smells but no bells

Saturday Morning - the Cathedral of the Holy Family As I said 3rd and 6th hour and then Divine Liturgy. Nice Church . Has pews but plenty of standing room. Chatted with Kyr Pavlo after Liturgy and was shown an Icon that had been placed in the Altar for me and that I would be receiving the following day.

Saturday evening - Vespers in the Romainain Orthodox Church - curious Iconostasis - well the icons themselves I mean - very Western I mean. Despite the Church being an active Anglican parish during the week the Romainians have it at the weekends. Though there are pews there I would say that most of us stood. From there I moved very swiftly to the RO [ MP] Cathedral for Matins [ we were late ] and then part of First Hour

Sunday morning was back to Holy Family again - this time the Pastor was serving Di
vine Liturgy. The Church was jammed full - no choir - but the singing was out of this world. Ever pew was full - there were some chairs in use and I reckon that we were standing 5 deep in places . If I had fainted I don't think I could have dropped. I will admit that I was tired by now and actually sat during the Homily.

Now as to the State of the Eastern Churches in Scotland

The Ukies have one Parish here - in Edinburgh , St Andrew and Our Lady of Pochaev but Fr Lubomyr has 7 communities in Scotland to serve so as a result we have Divine Liturgy once/month in a convent the other side of Glasgow from me - no car parking near enough and incredibly if I went by public transport I would have to allow 2 hours to be sure of getting there in time !! then with the best part of 2 hours to get home it's really not terribly practicable with my increasing years

Dear friends of Christ,

This is one of the few long threads that I've actually read from start to end. I just want to thank those who have presented the case for returning to our authentic tradition of pewless Churches. I think you have presented the pro's for this very adequately and convincingly. I rejoice in what this eventual reform will bring. I think you have also answered the objections very well, too. Some are just dead set against it. Nothing you will say can change this. I suppose there will always be Churches with pews to accomodate them. Or, if the Eastern Churches all eventually return, these people will migrate westward. Ofcourse, if the Latins also restore their authentic tradition, then these people will have to join the original pew-installers, the Protestants. Just kidding. I see that for some the idea of a pewless Church is very offensive. Don't worry, I think you will not have to worry about this in your life-time. Yet, I think it is good that this topic is being raised though, so that the needed reform can begin. I for one would love to see our Armenian Churches in the west, return to our true heritage. I just wanted to thank everyone on both sides for making your cases. It has been very instructive.

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Attention Dan Lauffer: thanks! I would take the descending electronic crucifix as a joke, albeit a joke in bad taste. But then again, I've had the pleasure of attending the "Santa Chioda" ceremony in Milan's Duomo (cathedral), complete with the electrified cloud carrying the Cardinal up to heaven and back down to earth - and no, I am NOT making this up! So stranger things have happened.
Incognitus

Incognito,

He wasn't trying to make a joke. He accused me of telling him he was going to hell if I weren't a member of my Church. I don't think he ever did believe we were Catholic at all, but some strange religion. I think I'd better tell him about the Santa Chiodo festival.

He took great offense at Father's admonision that if one is not Catholic one should not recieve communion. He had a couple of Atheist friends who do receive occasionally at his "Catholic"? Church and so was offended when he heard that they should not receive.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Incognitus,

Yes I have heard these comments about Prof. Zhuk's church designs, but I do not totally agree. I think that both St-Demtrius in Toronto, and the church at the Ukrainian National Association's estate 'Soyuzivka' in the Catskills are, at least from the exterior point of view, very nice.

What do you think of the new Patriarchal Sobor in Kyiv - you can be honest ?

Perhaps you could send the bishop a link to this thread and see if removing the pews could solve their lack of space in the Cathedral. All of our churches in Europe are jammed packed and there is a real lack of space in all of the major metropolitan cities.

Perhaps pewless churches is solution to the problem. Perhaps we should send Ilya on a 'worldwind European tour' with his chain saw in hand.

Amen, brother!

Nathan Hicks

I believe if you will read the Gospel of St. Luke for today you will find "...and a publican STOOD beating his breast..."

Diak,

Indeed so. We tend to see only what we wish to see. Reminds me of the firm conviction of another reader on another board that Jesus stood while the crowds sat as Jesus preached. Read the passage.

Dan Lauffer

BOZE MOJ!

BEATING HIS BREAST!!!!!

Another Latinization, guess he'll have to be thrown on top of the burning pews....

It seems to me, the merits of either's argument aside, that we're still close enough in time to the just-passed Christmas season, that people might make some effort to avoid thinly-veiled "ad hominem" attacks that are supposed to call into question the other's credibility in the eyes of readers.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Hritzko,
I quite deliberately named no particular architect in my posting, and I'm not about to confirm or deny your guess! I've never seen the church at Soyuzivka, so I couldn't comment on it if I wanted to.

But you mention that you "think that both St-Demtrius in Toronto, and the church at the Ukrainian National Association's estate 'Soyuzivka' in the Catskills are, at least from the exterior point of view, very nice." Surely the exterior point of view is not as important as the interior? I based my comments on the principle that modern architecture is supposed to be functional, so the first question would be whether a given building lends itself to the functions for which it was (presumably) constructed.
I don't really care for the design of the new Patriarchal Sobor in Kiev - but then again no one asked my advice, nor is there any reason why anyone should have asked my advice. My strongest question can be stated simply: does the design include adequate, comfortable provision for the disabled to get to and into the temple and make full use of it? To offer two bad examples of what I mean, consider Saint Andrew's in Kiev, which requires the would-be worshipper to climb innumerable stone steps, outdoors yet in the wind, rain and snow - or Saint George's in L'viv which sits on top of a steep hill and then also requires the worshipper to climb an intimidating flight of outdoor steps. On the plus side, consider Saint Mary's in Minneapolis, which is equipped with a power lift for those who need it - and it reaches even to the choir loft, so those who cannot climb stairs can still sing in the choir. God bless Father Thaddeus.
Incognitus

What do you think of the new Patriarchal Sobor in Kyiv - you can be honest ?