www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

I am just in from Divine Liturgy and today's Gospel reading and the Homily REALLY made me think about this thread.

I was picturing in my mind the Pharisee standing in his church, glancing out the window and praying, OH, LORD, THANK YOU FOR NOT MAKING ME LIKE THAT PUBLICAN OVER THERE and muttering something about anathama and heretic....

In the humble little church across the street, the Publican is kneeling in his pew and praying OH LORD, GOD, BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER....

JMHO...

mark

Dear Diak,

I was hoping that a certain somebody was lurking , 'cause we are putting our program together for this summer's 'Zlet' in Greece and we sure could use some good ideas

Yes, I do know the priest you mentioned - small world . I like his style. I attend Christ the King UGCC and St-Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox regularly (both in the Jamaica Plains section of Boston). It's a much smaller Ukie community than in Montreal, but very friendly and inviting. The churches are definitely Ukrainian in culture and rite but very much open to all who wish to attend.

Hritzko, that is great. You might even go to Hesperinos or Liturgy there sometime and be offered the Artoklasia or Antidoron on your tarilvka...

Do you go to Jamaica Plain by chance? Fr. Jaroslav's brother Fr. Bohdan (Nalysnyk) was my former pastor.

You know this has been a fascinting thread - even for this Methodist turned RC wannabe Ukie Catholic. Yes I have always been used to pews or chairs or the like but strangely enough since I was in London in November - my views have changed enormously.

Let me quickly recap on that weekend - I 'did ' Vigil on Friday evening [ after a rotten train journey], 3rd and 6th Hours on Saturday morning followed by Divine Liturgy [ that was a very early start too] Most of a Vigil on Saturday evening - well Vespers in one Church then a fast trip to another for Matins and part of First Hour. And Sunday was the most wonderful Divine Liturgy that I have ever experienced.

A friend made these comments to me about Liturgy/Services

"" forget about time, and the other things you have to do. Services are both 'within' time, as well as 'outside' time.
They take place within the world, but take us beyond.
Then again, this only happens if we are part of the service, not just mere spectators.""

This did strike a Big Chord with me and I replied as follow

""this is true - as I realised in November - I was physically very tired afterwards - but not really at the time - and I certainly stood far more than I have ever done - but - are you ready for this ? -- it seemd totally natural . Oh yes I did have language problems but it really did not seem to matter . I 'knew' what was going on""

I would very happily stand again - well I do in Lourdes - but that weekend made me realise that because you know you can sit if necessary - you are actually more alert and able to enter into the Liturgy in a way that I have not been able to do before.

Sorry for the ramble - I hope it makes sense :p

It makes perfect sense, Angela. Natural is the right and operative word. I have yet to find a pew/kneeler combination that egonomically and "naturally" suits my "full figure".

I agree that the liturgical changes came later and are a separate issue. I don't know if there are any recollections from the earliest days about our bulding temples here - what ideas, discussions, and arguments informed their decisions about design, decor and furnishing. It would be nice to read some original material on the subject. Maybe some (lurkers?) can point to sources.

As to pastoral sensitivity in midst of changes to the liturgy: In those days I recall that our priest would take liberties with the English liturgy, but would adhere to most every detail in the Old Slavonic liturgy.

Dear Our Lady's Slave of Love,

I had the opportunity of visitin Glasgow for a conference 2 years ago, and I must say that I have never met more friendly people anywhere. The city architechture was also very inspiring. The hotel at which I stayed was certainly the most elegant I have ever had the opportunity enjoying.

Please contact the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Bishop for the United Kingdom regarding the possibility of establishing a mission in the Glasgow area. There has been a large wave of new immigrants who have arrived in the U.K. in the past few years and it is very possible that they are trying to establish a community in Glasgow. There may already be people who are requesting the establishment of a mission in your city.

The new UGCC bishop in the United Kindom (@ London) is from Western Canada and is very sensitive to multiculturalism and can probably guide you in regards to better understanding the liturgy. He may have plans English language into the divine liturgies.

Also you should not feel out of place in the UGCC churches in the U.K.. Most of the current parishoners were members of various armed forces in Eastern Europe at the end of the last war. Most escaped from behind communist lines through the Ukrainian Carpathian mountains, then through slovakia, and finally to Austria (or Italy). Very few Ukrainian women were able to get out with the 1000's men therefore when they arrived in the U.K. most married British women. They had their wives learn Ukrainian and become members of the church. They have lots of experience in welcoming non-Ukrainians and are always honoured. I bet you will 'knock their sock off !'

Don't know if this responds to djs's question, but here goes. There is or was an architect in Canada who designed the most unbearable buildings, completely unsuited for the Byzantine Liturgy. He and I met at a learned conference somewhere, and I asked him (in a private conversation) if he had truly designed a few churches which I mentioned. He said he had. I then remarked that I had thought that modern architecture is at least supposed to be functional, and that his building designs had not taken function into account.
The answer floored me. The architect assured me that each time he was invited to design a church building, he asked the priest to tell him the space needs, lighting needs, and so on - and never once was the priest able to offer a sensible answer! The appalling part is that I believe the architect was speaking the truth.
Incognitus

Tim,

Just in case you are unaware of why I am irritated with you I will repeat, you claimed that our Church treated a former pastor poorly but when I called you on it you had no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim but the lame comment that perceptions often appear to make reality.

Newspaper ethics sometimes call for newspaper men to double check their sources. Too often said newspaper men don't but share the comfortable gossip. I have no use for the "God bless you" charade either. So I won't offer it.

Perhaps some of your coffee if hot enough could wipe away some of your smugness.

Incognitus,

I quite agree with you. The American culture or anti-culture has much to commend it. What it does not have is a native Eastern Christian presence. Whether or not others wish to live one the same way we at Annunciation wish to live one shouldn't trouble anyone. The problem is some Byzantine Catholics have the same view of Eastern Christianity as one of my Roman Catholic students had. He complained that we were not Catholic. He suggested that the icons made him imagine that an electrically lit crucifix was going to come out of the ceiling at any minute among loud singing and explosives.

His insightful effort earned him a D-, though it should have been lower.

Does my student's comment seem like Tim's to you? It does to me.

Dan Lauffer

"In the humble little church across the street, the Publican is kneeling in his pew and praying OH LORD, GOD, BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER...."

Or he could be standing or he could be in full prostration.

Dan Lauffer

Angela,

Your post makes perfect sense. Before there was much room for us to stand, because either chairs or pews filled the room, I often found myself, despite the best of intentions, wandering off to temporal matters. I had often to pull my attention back to the heavenly matters going on before me. A couple of times I even got drowsy. I joined the cantors and the choir and had to stand the entire liturgy. I found that I instantly became more attentive and I thoroughly enjoyed it. My schedule no longer allows me to attend practice and so I've had to drop out of choir. Thankfully, Father has made plenty of room available for those who wish to stand. I have no desire to sit. I never look at my watch and wonder why liturgy is so brief. Standing may not be for everyone but it certainly keeps me attentive.

Dan L

Dear Dan,

I suspect that you didn't know Father Kurty. He was the kind of man that everybody just loved. He is still remembered with great fondness at my cradle parish in Johnstown where he served half a century ago! I am sure that however he was treated it would not have seemed quite enough to those that loved him. I think that Tim had pointed out that he was describing the feeling of some parishioners of St. Mary's, irrespective of the objective reality, because that was what your query seemed to ask. All things considered ISTM, as I have remarked before, that how things have worked out at Annunciation has been nothing sort of remarkable if not miraculous. And don't be quick about shaking Seeley St. dust from your sandals. Time heals, and those who may have needed a little more time are probably your very best prospects for recruitment.

Not in the least. I think you must be reading Tim with some unwarranted assumptions in mind.

Dear Dan,

I don't know if saying 'God bless you' is really a charade. I say it alot, and I like to because it makes me feel more like a Christian in a very secularized world.

Society and for a long time, my Orthodox jurisdiction, had seemed to allow this practice to fall to the wayside. Yet, people of another generation, even non-Christians such as Jews, used to offer these blessings on new born infants (my fondest memories are from older strangers doing this). Blessings are very potent Christian wishes for the welfare of another. If as a Christian, one adheres to the belief in the spiritual warfare of this world, then one should have no problem with these little 'prayers'.

Ofcourse, sometimes, there may be some who don't mean them, or use them flippantly. That is another story.

I have personally found that if I don't like a person very much, that if I say 'God bless you' to them, it makes me have more 'agape' love in my heart for them. I also find that if one has had an angry discourse, conversation, or argument, and can bring themselves to say 'blessings' or 'God bless you', then the heart automatically starts to heal, forgive, and feel love, upon that invocation of our Lord. Most of all, if I already have much Christian 'agape' for someone, it just really feels spiritually wonderful saying it and wishing all those 'good things from above' that it insinuates.

In Christ,
Alice

djs,

From everyone who knew Father Kurty with whom I've spoken your report is quite accurate. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I'm too defensive about our Church. Many look at us with great respect but we've also heard our share of jealous remarks. Upon review of his comments I still believe Tim spoke out of turn, but I have many times as well. So I will attempt to make peace with Tim.

Alice,

The phrase can bring great blessing, but Tim and I both know people who use it as a put down.

God bless you, as a blessing not a put down,

Dan Lauffer

How lucky you are!