www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

I stand by what I wrote about the roots of tradition. It may not all be ham, but a lot of it is baloney. Yellow Ribbons are now a potent national symbol of remembrance, and you can thank Tony Orlando and Dawn for that.

Pews in our churches are as much an example of Americanization as they are of Latinization. And that is a very real part of the tradition of the Byzantine Catholic faithful who seem to be ignored in this intellectual debate.

Our people were peasants, who came to this country to become members of the working class, and ultimately moved up. They wanted to fit into the mainstream and the orderliness of all those neat rows of pews is an outward manifestation of that dramatic move into the American culture.

Thos pews then migrated back to the Carpathian homeland, where they were a sign of modernism in a bleak corner of the world.

I don't feel a personal need for pews myself. But ignoring THAT tradition would be insulting to my parents and my grandparents and those who came before (along with the masses of faithful who still fill those evil pews.)

--Tim

Don,

You evangelize the way you wish. I'll evangelize the way I wish.

Dan L

Tim,

Let's cut to the chase. Your historical analysis is fine. But I say, so what? The real problem between you and me, if there is one, is that you have insulted our Church and I don't appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned it was gratuitous and without any other point.

As far as pews or no pews rather than stand by your "historical" analysis it might be better to stand as you worship.

Dan Lauffer

So throwing out pews is evangelization??? Please! What a bunch of nonsense. At least be honest enough to admit it just YOUR preference and not a dogma. I think Tim has the right take on it. Personally, I can care less if there are pews or not, but when know-it-alls make it a dogma and call the use of pews heretical, I just want to laugh. Some people need to get a life. They fiddle while new Rome burns. Don

The Byzantine Catholic Church uses prostopinije, which doesn't come from Constantinople. Should we drop that? I don't think so, but the only real reason is the esthetic one. It's beautiful and a tradition that continues to inspire.

The Byzantine Catholic Church uses pussywillows on Palm Sunday. That doesn't come from Constantinople, but from pre-Christian Slavic rituals.

Should we toss them out as well?

I hope not, because it's one of the many colorful pagan traditions that the church usurped. Frankly, I think it was one of the wiser aspects of the missions to our Slavic people, taking customs like that symbol of spring fertility along with the pysanky and incorporating them into a new tradition.

Personally, I think our churches should still offer a liturgy in traditional Church Slavonic every week. But maintaining the old language is unrealistic in the modern American context.

In fact, it's as unrealistic as telling people that these benches we've been sitting on since their grandparents were baptized are somehow heretical and, while we're at it, the liturgy is way too short.

The Byzantine Catholic Church isn't some Disneyland-style romantic reproduction of an ancient Byzantine church somewhere in Asia Minor. It's the product of a millenium of other cultural overlays, including the profound changes wrought over the last century or so here in North America.

--Tim

Tim,

Before you have a stroke please, where do you attend a BC Church in Milwaukee? When do you plan to apologize?

Don,

You tend to your business and I'll tend to mine.

Dan L

I heard an amusing anecdote a while back, but can not vouch for its truthfulness. The story goes that the OCA's Archbishop Dmitri was being interviewed by the Fire Marshall to determine if the number of exits in the new cathedral that was being built were adequate. The fire marshall asked him how many people the cathedral would seat. Archbishop Dmitri supposedly replied that it would only seat 15 to 20, but that it's capacity was several hundred.

-- Ed

My dear brother Tim,
All I can say is "AMEN!"

Dan,
This is a free forum where anyone may comment on anything that is posted. When someone posts something asinine, I am just as free to respond to that post as the original poster to post in the first place.

Don

Don,

Remember, that goes both ways.

Dan L

In a forum such as this it is or should be obvious that everyone is free to comment as he pleases, and everyone else is free to criticize such comments. Certain things are off limits: vulgarisms, personal remarks, obvious heretics and so forth. One does well to realize that e-mail is already more impersonal than a telephone call, and still more impersonal than a face-to-face conversation; e-mail does not permit various tones and stresses commonly used in speech, nor does it permit various gestures which these days are, I gather, called "body language".
Exercising my privilege to criticize Tim's comment, I shall offer the opinion which pleases me - that is, I shall suggest that the claim that pews are "American" and represent "Americanization" closely resembles the claim often heard in the 'fifties and 'sixties that the icon-screen was not American and that it was more American to remove the icon-screen.
Those who really want "American" religion might try the nearest Indian reservation, where they may search for the wigwam used by the medicine man, sit on the rug and smoke the peace pipe. If that isn't attractice, see if there are still any Shaker communities functioning (they used to make lovely wooden furniture, incidentally). Or maybe one could join one of hte fundamentalist Mormon groups and establish a family based on polygamy (yes there are still a few such small churches, though the main Mormon body does not practice polygamy). Otherwise, it might be more sensible to agree that America has lots of religions and lots of forms of religious expression, and that whether one's Church does or does not have pews has nothing in particular to do with how American one is or is not. Unless, that is, one is referring to what Robert Bellah has called "American civil religion", which runs contrary to the Orthodox and Catholic ethos.
Incognitus

Dan,

I'm perfectly calm, sitting at my computer with a nice cup of coffee sharing my thoughts. And I have no need to apologize for anything I've said, or defend my church-going. Your use of the debate technique of bluster and bullying doesn't scare me away from a discussion.

I've never personalized a discussion where you were a participant. In fact, you asked for my opinion on the thread about the declining Byzantine Catholic population, and when it didn't fit in with what you wanted to hear, you offered this:

"I think you, Tim, and ... have far too little faith in our people." (I won't repeat the other names.)

I would never suggest I have any insight into the heart of someone else. For the record, I have abundant faith in our people. I was born among them and have no plans to move on.

I'd like to turn this conversation on to a positive path, but I've never been comfortable with the "God bless you" kind of comments that many on this board are at ease with.

I'll try in this case, since I sincerely wish His blessings on you. You are a dedicated soul and I wish you well.

Tim

I disagree with throwing the liturgy into this. The liturgical changes were made in the early 1960s, by the hierarchy, not the people. In fact many of the older generation and especially the immigrants were quite disappointed in the liturgical changes. This also happened with some of the older generation in the Latin rite when the changes in the Roman liturgy came and they had absolutely no option or "pastoral sensitivity" given them. They had to learn to live with drive-through when they were used to a full course meal.

If the assertion here is that what was done 30 or 40 years ago somehow automatically becomes a normative and immemorial tradition, I disagree with that.

I do agree with Tim that the Slavic heritage has wonderfully inculturated Byzantine, pagan and other diverse custom in its own unique way. It did not remain a Kyiv branch of a musuem for Constantinople, but took on its own identity.

For any of you who have ever been to Turkey, you would know that each and every mosque in the country is more or less a copy of the original - the Hagia Sophia (yes our ancestral Orthodox Cathedral turned mosque). Variations from building to building include size and the number of minarettes (ie: 1, 2, 3, or 4). It's as if the Muslim Turks saw 'beauty' (Hagia Sophia) copied it and fell asleep on the 'on' button for a couple of hundred of years. It's as if there is a building 'photocopier' that just keeps reproducing the same thing. How dull can you get ?

Slavs have been able to ad to the beauty of Byzantium, modify it, and create distinctive forms of their own Eastern Christian culure. For example the variety of church architectue in Ukraine reflect a rich and varied history of it's existance in and between differenct foreign empires. Wooden churches of the Carpathian moutains, St-Georges (Lviv) with it's unique 'Italian Rococco' design, St-Sophia's with it's distinct 'Cossak Baroque' exterior. There are many other examples.

In many parishes across North America we have emulated these 'old country' styles because we felt that they helped bridge the old with new worlds. At the same time, during the last two generations we have experimented with 'modern designs'. I would like to think that by working on the modern designs here, we have been able make the mistakes our brothers and sisters in Eastern Europe are now avoiding (I won't mention any specific parishes )

IMHO, the establishment of distinct Slavic Byzantine Churches is a normal and welcomed development by the Greek Orthodox Church.

This summer as part of our +30 year tradition of having major conventions / reunions (Zlet) during the summer Olympics, several hundred of our youth group members will be meeting as tourists in Greece to view the games. Part of our cultural program will be to meet for prayer with the Greek Orthodox Major Archbishop of Athens. We will publicly exhibit our Slavic Greek Catholic rite, as it has evolved over the centuries - including; icons, a marching band to play religious hyms while we sing. I'm confident that the GOC leaders will welcome us in our embroidered shirts as true Orthodox brothers and sisters. The Patriarch of Constantinople did so in 1988 when our group travelled to visit him. We should honor our forefathers for having given us such a rich Slavic Orthodox heritage. I think this is the road to mending the scism. As Tim says, trying to emulate some turn-of-the-millennium Byzantine Church just does not seem to be the right path for everyone. We should not close the other rich Slavic avenues we inherited from our forefathers, 'they all lead to Byzantium & Rome'

Hritzko, that is wonderful that your Zlet is going to Greece. I'm sure they will love the sorochkas and vishivka there. Bishop Anargyros is a wonderful man. I understand also that there are more Ukrainian immigrants now working in Athens that attend Liturgy there.

These don't have pews. Had to get that in...

No, not at all. You're absolutely right.

But I find the some of the most outspoken advocates of change are vigorously pushing on all these fronts simultaneously. Whichever traditions are reclaimed, this has to be an evolutionary process, not a revolution.

The Byzantine Catholic Church would be hard-pressed to deal with a mass exodus of people right now. And those who know our history understand that this has occurred in the past on a large scale, Those who know the history of individual parishes, have evidence of it happening on a small scale.

Our macro and micro history -- both here in North America and in the European and Eurasian roots of our faith -- are both key to understanding our present realities.

--Tim