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Dr John,

Of course I agree about staying out of the Archdiocese of Hallmark and the Eparchy of Target.

My suspicion is that -- once again -- the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many appreciate the idea that we should use the best that our culture offers to worship God and build the community. But it cannot be so highbrow or arcane as to alienate a large majority of the worshipping community.

This isn't about reducing o/Orthodoxy to a style one likes. The truth lies not in a theoretical middle churchmanship between traditional and modern but in objective content and principles, which all the traditional versions of the rites, including the Anglican hybrid of the Roman, have. And part of my point in this thread is the Anglican Use isn't obscure but rather incorporates a lot of things already in Anglo-American culture, even things I personally don't like, like 19th-century Protestant hymns.

http://oldworldrus.com

I agree, Brother Serge. The "Anglican Use" is more or less a legitimate outgrowth of English usage of the Roman Rite. (Let's forget Sarum and Gallican and all that for now.)

And, for better or worse, American culture, devolved as it is, is rooted in English culture and values. The Canadians are certainly closer (except, of course, in Quebec) but we still share a lot in terms of language, clothing, food (Pie! I love pie!! And roast beef!!), and values. In America, we've never gotten anywhere near beyond the Magna Carta and the idea that the people have the right to demand their rights even if the King says no.

So, when we approach liturgy, even though we are Eastern in thought and theology, we still have this underlying, stone-hard belief in the value of "the people", which oftentimes runs in direct contradiction to the thought and theology of our ancestral nations.

I can see Brother Serge's point: "The truth lies not in a theoretical middle churchmanship between traditional and modern but in objective content and principles, which all the traditional versions of the rites, including the Anglican hybrid of the Roman, have."

But, I am not sure about the "objective content" aspect. Principles? Sure, no question. Credal statements? Absolutely. But the way that these principles and credal statements are lived out is the real question.

As a simple example, I would propose that one consider the issue of a young person who wishes to marry a certain individual. In the culture (and theology?) of the "old countries", it was Daddy who made the decision and without his consent the marriage couldn't take place (at least for the daughter). In our culture (Romeo and Juliet, Hank Williams, West Side Story) we wouldn't buy this in a New York minute.

Is this part and parcel of the "faith"? No, it's just cultural. The principle of marriage still obtains: the free will union of two people, until death are they parted. The theology is still valid. But the cultural aspect is changed. True lovers should be able to cling to each other in the eyes of God and the eyes of the community.

The same is true of liturgy. We have to be able to make emendations to our (cultural) liturgical lifestyles to adhere to the principles of the Gospel. I am in NO way saying that we should just willy-nilly adopt all the craziness that is swirling around us, but we --as the people-- should be able to organically evolve from the perspectives that our ancestors themselves had evolved into.

We aren't dummies. We aren't stupid. We should be able to direct the course of our communitarian/parochial lives according to our needs. And our clergy, themselves also human more or less (It's a joke!! Lighten up!), should be able to both lead and guide us in our journey to the Father.

Remember, St. Paul defined our clergy-leaders as: "A priest is a man, chosen by God, from among the people to serve the people in the things that pertain to God." That's the Gospel, not the Typikon.

Blessings, y'all! (I'm working in Kentucky; gotta say that here. But the bourbon is GREAT!!)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The Western Rite Vicarate in the Antiochian Orthodox Church basically serves two groups of former Anglicans /Episcopalian groups in the US.The first group using the Liturgy of St Gregory tended to be former High Church Anglicans who formerly used the Anglican Missal (more Latin in background). The second group normally "broad Church" Episcopalians who loved the 1928 BCP will usually use the Liturgy of St Tikhon (the adapted BCP Liturgy "corrected" by the Synod of Russian Orthodox Bishops prior to the 1917 Revolution at the Request of St Tikhon that eliminated the more obvious protestant errors).

The Western Rite, when compared to the Byzantine liturgical forms, is simpler, less redundant, obviously shorter, and employs a hymnody (the hymns used) that is familiar and well loved by these former Anglicans/Episcopalians. More precisely, the Western Rite, as approved by the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese is by their own standard a "theologically corrected" form of worship used by the Latin Church (Roman) or the Anglican Communion.

In some Western Rite congregations, the Liturgy may be a Latin or English form of pre-Vatican-II Roman Catholic worship (Liturgy of St Gregory). Other Western Rite parishes use a liturgy based on the Anglican Book of Common Prayer (Liturgy of St Tikhon) The Modifications, while important, would not be terrible noticeable to even the most regular worshippers. Two of these alterations include the deletion of the Filioque [and the Son] clause in the Nicene Creed and the addition of a stronger epiclesis in the eucharistic prayer said by the priest at the consecration of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Besides the removal of the filioque in the Creed, the Western Rite Liturgy requires the priest to petition God the Holy Spirit to act in changing the gifts of bread and wine into the life giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The words used in the Liturgy are: "And we beseech thee, O Lord, to send down Thy Holy Spirit upon these offerings, that He would make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ, and that which is in this Cup the precious Blood of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, transmuting them by thy Holy Spirit. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN."

In addition to these two changes, the Western Rite includes other indiscernible changes that Latin Roman Catholics and most Anglo Catholics (old fashioned, High Church Episcopalians would find to be either familiar or certainly acceptable).

The Western Rite Vicarate offered to those former Anglicans /Episcopalians who could no longer stay in their modernist Anglican/Episcopal Churches (and likewise will not go into the Roman Catholic Church because they did not believe the current Roman Catholic understanding of papal infallability and primacy) to retained culturally familiar forms of worship and at the same time, insured themselves of remaining within an ecclesiastical communion of the historic Orthodox Church with the added benefit of apostolic succession they did not possess in the Anglican Communion.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Thomas ]

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Dear Thomas,

Thank you for this posting about Western Rite Orthodoxy. It is very helpful and helps to clarify the makeup of the membership of the Church and the its Liturgical practices.

Steve
JOY!