www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Please tell me this isn't part of Byzantine chant now!!

Well, there's the Gregorian Chant, which according to the documents of Vatican II was supposed to have an enhanced place in the renewed Mass.

In fact, the original intent of the liturgical renewal was to bring the Latin Rite closer in style to the Orthodox Liturgy - to have the entire Mass sung, by the congregation and not just a few people up in the choir loft or behind the amplified speakers. That goal is still waiting to be reached.

Although there is no "I" involved, we ourselves also deliver the words of Christ when we chant the beatitudes for the third antiphon.

What is really the beef here?

In the BC we sing hymns. Some Orthodox also do this, others don't. Some Orthodox Hierarchs "deplore" aspects of this practice (like nativity Kol'ady before/after the liturgy). I think that we must be careful about what we are singing in terms of the coherence with our ethos (I've seen some comments about the dicey theology of Kol' Slaven Nas.)

I also think that we have a responsibility to safeguard and treasure our legacy, but am not particularly concerned about exclusive use of old country hymns. Indeed that would be something of a paradox. Our tradition almost certainly includes developing new material through composing, borrowing, and adapting popular sources. If we are not doing that now, then shame on our lack of vitality. If we are inclined to criticize such a practice, then perhaps we need to develop a better understanding of our tradition.

What about western influence? I am not entirely certain what posters mean by "Western", (traditional or otherwise). In terms of song form, and melodic style, and harmonic style, our hymns and our liturgical "songs", are, with a few idiosyncracies, "Western". Some of our proper chant is also, but agreat deal is not. The entire idea of choral part singing wide-spread in Slavic Orthodoxy is directly borrowed from Western musical developments, as are most aspects (albeit not all) of harmony and voice-leading.

Moreover, we are, for the most part, Western. I feel that legacy of Bach, Mozart, Brahms, ..., is as much mine as anyone's. And the resevoir of popular culture from which we might draw some new material would, as life has been dealt to us, primarily be American/ Western European.

Now, not all music is created equal, and bad music should certainly be avoided. But I don't think that the fact that a piece was composed by an RC, or member of any other religion for that matter, puts that piece, immediately, on the bad music list. That fact that it is in some vague sense "western", surely doesn't.

AFAIK, this would not "Orthodox" style.

Really? That's how the Byzantine Liturgy is, at least the one I've been attending. Is the Byzantine Liturgy considered an aberration?

And to get back to my original point, are you seriously defending the use of a hymn like "Be Not Afraid" as part of the Divine Liturgy? Because frankly, it just doesn't fit. That's my beef.

And speaking of beef ... I'm going to lunch. Perhaps I'll feel a little more charitable after a hot roast beef sandwich!

There are a number of "new" Eucharistic and Marian hymns that I've learned, especially at the Uniontown pilgrimage from the group of Rusyn immigrants from the village of Litmanova, Slovakia who now live in Brooklyn NY and central NJ--these hymns are what we might think of as syrupy and not theology-laden. However, they reflect a certain spirituality that I see in our people that differentiates us strongly from that of the Russians, Greeks or other traditional Orthodox peoples. The language of these hymns is also essentially pure Rusyn dialect and not a mishmash of Church Slavonic, Rusyn, and Ukrainian. These hymns may be native compositions of some faithful in eastern Slovakia, or they may even be Rusynized borrowings from Ukrainian paraliturgical hymns. But they do provide some evidence of a natural development of popular hymnography that is not an outright copying from a western (RC or Protestant) source.

Similarly, some professional Rusyn singers from Slovakia have also written their own hymns that are now widely known and sung--such as Hanka Servicka and the Reviljak Family Singers. In fact, the Reviljak family sang some of their hymns at Camp Nazareth last weekend, including at Holy Communion during Sunday's hierarchical Divine Liturgy. The hymns were truly beautiful melodically and their spiritual content was authentically ours. Looking around, I think I was not the only one moved by these hymns at that event.

Theist Gal,

In many places in Orthodoxy congregational singing is an exception. Some Orthodox still feel strongly about this. I think it's a good thing to see congregational singing of the responses developing. In many places, however, singing is done by the choir.

I don't think many here would support the idea of using modern Western hymns such as "Be Not Afraid" during the Divine Liturgy. That would disturb me greatly. But, for different reasons than what you gave. We are called to rediscover our heritage...not to add elements foreign to our tradition. As Lemko has shown singing the hymn "This new commandment I give to you" in the Ruthenian tradition would go counter to the thesis put forth by Day and others.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Theist gal:

I don't know what is considered "best" practice in "O"rthodoxy (hence the AFAIK), but it is probably fair to say that choir singing has a greater emphasis, whereas in our (BCC) tradition, congregational singing has a greater emphasis.

I am not sufficiently familiar with the use of "Be Not Afraid", at your parish to defend or to attack its use. In light of the comments on this thread - not yours for the most part - I wanted to point out that Western-style song, and borrowing from popular culture is, AFAIK, within our tradition. Nevertheless, my preference is for a congregation to tap our own resources first, and primarily. What is the mix at your parish?

What about the hymn itself? Not to my taste, but my sisters all like it.

Well, that's just what the Church needs these days - more songs that appeal to women.

(Oh, wait a minute - I'm a woman, and I don't like these songs. Well, guess there's a bad apple in every bunch! :rolleyes: )

Thanks for your post Lemko.

I am reluctant to criticize the syrupiness of "Be Not Afraid", given the similar tendency of many of our hymns. That certain spirituality - direct, honest, and unabashed devotion - may be an acquired taste, but I cut my teeth on Vitaj Mezhd Nami!

Dear Theist Gal,

My remark was just a personal observation - no other implications whatsoever. My point is that tastes vary among people, and I reluctant to be harsh about tastes that I recognize within my own family.

Further to djs' comments...

First let it be known that I am all in favor of congregational singing but it does not seem to be the norm in Orthodoxy across the board. Neither is the use of the true vernacular although that seems to be changing.

Carpatho-Russian (and to a lesser extent Ukrainian or Galician as I understand it) usage and custom is an exception. Where there is congregational singing in other usages in Orthodoxy it seems much more limited.

Again, I am not defending the practice nor saying it is any better just that seems to be the way it is.

"Uncle"!

At least I got my Avatar back!

The wording of "this new Commandment" is almost a direct scriptural reference, which would make it about as traditional as it gets!

Steve P.

In the orginal context, as I understand your post, it was actually paraliturgical and not part of the Liturgy proper (I hope). In the paraliturgical sense, there is wide variation in practices among both BC and Orthodox parishes. Now, if 'Izhe Cheruvimy' was sung to the "Be not Afraid" melody, it would definitely raise some eyebrows!!!

Steve Petach

And what if it was sung to the melody of "It's a Small World"?