www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Vesper stikhera for September 21st

This thread was intended only to answer some questions relative to an unusual liturgical convergence in Byzantine vespers for September 21st. Larger issues about restoring Vespers as a whole in Greek Catholic parishes or the merits of various editions of the Typikon are far outside what I started here.

Not all those who are trying to plan services have access to all of the resources, so my intention was to help those who had asked with those on one specfic day and application of Vespers. Period.

I would hope that Greek Catholics would support those who are working to restore Vespers and other aspects of the liturgical tradition, lost to a great extent in most Greek Catholic parishes. I was suprised at some of the negative discussion on this thread. I think the old saying is if you don't want to be part of the solution, don't be part of the problem.

Well, maybe you and me, but the rest of the US? Ha! (Maybe the primate of our Carpatho-Rusyn Byzantine Greek Catholic True Orthodox Christian Church of the Greek-Ruthenian Rite will give the nihil obstat and his imprimatur to its publication?)

Diak,

In your first post, you stated that, "... here goes from my checking of several typikons."

I was under the impression that one of those typicons you checked was the one published by our metropolia (Dr. David Petras) seeing how St. Luke's is a part of that church. Unless you are not following the prescribed Typicon for the Ruthenian Catholic Churches in the US ...

What did you find out from this typicon? I believe that Fr. David spells it all out. I don't remember you ever giving an answer.

Joe

Someone asked for guidance and suggestions which preciptated this thread, and I gave it. That's pretty straightforward.

If you want to start another thread specifically about the merits or lack thereof of different typikons, feel free to start another thread. Why so critical? Why not be just a little supportive of those trying to work to restore liturgical treasures of their Church? As any good cantor or subdeacon I don't do anything without the blessing of the pastor, regardless of church, jurisdiction, whatever.

So you really are the typikon cop, all of that other fluff you said earlier about protoprebyters is just a cover.

Diak,

You stated that you have access to typicons, hopefully including the one from Fr. David Petras. Read it. Fr. David has instructions for every day of the year, including September 21. If you have every other typicon, but not Fr. David's, then I highly advise you get a copy. They're not too expensive. What does your pastor use? Maybe he has one and he will be kind enough to let you take a peek?

As for typicon cops, I only refer to the basic tool that should be in every parish temple accessible to clergy and cantors. What is so wrong about following the instructions there? Do you suggest that it is better to re-invent the wheel when such a beautiful book of guidance is published every year for our use? I don�t get what you mean with such a comment. Am I to be considered a nasty fella simply because I suggest using our own Typicon for what it was meant to be used for? I was overjoyed to learn that such a tool existed for cantors. I appreciated Fr. David�s efforts in making the job of cantoring easier by making the preparation of services less difficult.

Joe

I've got ONE, thanks Joe. I don't see any law, ecclesial or otherwise, that prohibits LOOKING at other liturgical resources besides ONE. Not everyone on this forum belongs to the jurisdiction that you claim is obliged to use that ONE. Think of that? Apparently not.

What parish do you serve?

I asked you earlier:
"Since you are serving in one of Parma's churches, I would think you are obliged to follow the Ruthenian Pittsburgh Metropolia Typicon 2003 as compiled by Fr. David Petras."

Do you serve at St. Luke's parish in Kansas City?

Joe

I think it's time to move on to some adult conversations... :rolleyes:

Diak,

You still refuse to answer what parish you 'serve' at. Is it St. Luke's, Eparchy of Parma (Ruthenian)? Why won't you answer?

If you serve at St. Luke's in Kansas City, then you follow the Typicon provided by Fr. David Petras, a copy of which you have. I was only trying to point you in the right direction. Please understand that I wasn't trying to be a 'typicon cop.'

How's vespers going at St. Luke's? Do the Uniontown vesper books help?

Joe

Administrator,

So I don't really agree with the position that the cantor has not learned "the typicon" well enough to properly lead the services. Those who go thru seminary training ought to be able to decipher any of the common "typicons" and similar that are available. Since most BC parishes have full-time pastors it does not seem that demanding for the pastor to tell the cantor what he/she will sing. The skill necessary for the cantor is understanding how the service is put together which entails what (text) goes where (at which point) and how (tonal assignment). It does not in my opinion mean understanding how the collisions of the calendar impact the service. Why one week it is all from the Oktoechos yet the next week from both the Menaion and Oktoechos, etc.

Ideally this might be otherwise as it was in times past but as has been noted with people who do this only on the weekends/holydays it is not a reasonable expectation. That is why, it seems to me, the onus falls on those who are in charge, the pastors.

Tony

I agree with Tony. Ultimately it does depend on the pastor (unless it is a priestless community with Reader's services) as it is he who will preside at all of the services. If he elects to delegate some of the responsibilities that is his choice.

Also with regard to learning all of the samohlasni, there is nothing wrong with doing stikhera recto tono (Reader's tone) until comfort is reached with samohlasni and the introductory verse tones.

Halychnayn, it is going from Tone 3 to Tone 5 or vice versa in samohlasni that gets me, not 6 to 5.

This is very true and well said. I certainly can count myself in your "we all began simply" category.

J Thur said:
Except for the fact that Fr. Petras does not detail the apolytikia if Vespers is served apart from a Vigil, I can not see how the answer given at the beginning of this thread differs from the Fr. Petras Typicon. What are you driving at?

Diak wrote:
Thanks. I've been leading reader's services for three-plus years and for the most part can do it in my sleep (and sometimes I think I am doing Matins in my sleep at home, hours before sunrise on a Sunday morning!)

Of course, Murphy's Law is such that life was interfering on "prep time" for Friday evening, and I just figured I could show up at church, glance at the typicon and be off to the races. Maybe you can help with my two problems, both from Fr. Petras' typicon. I was using "Format 9 - Patronal Saint on Weekday"

Apostichera at Vespers - of the saint, with its proper versicles. No apostichera for the Dedication of the Church of the Resurrection were to be found, so I substituted the stichera for the pre-feast of the Exaltation.

Canon at Matins - Where does one find a "Canon of the Mother of God from the Menaion of the day"? We had three different Menaia available and I could find such a thing in none of them. I just took the easy route and only did the canon for the patronal feast and didn't even really give it a second thought, but it bothers me to draw a complete blank on something like this.

-- Ed

Ed, thanks for the kind words and support. I am not in the business of publicly criticizing a Typikon that much effort and work was put into, even though deficincies may be present. I'll take those up privately and charitably with the writer instead of dishing it publicly.

Hence with the complexity of Byzantine services as pointed out here I don't understand the seeming crisis with looking at more than one resource when there are deficincies in another or an apparent contradiction. I don't understand the almost manic hoopla here.

Ed, the St. John of Kronstadt Press Oktoechos has daily Canons for Matins. These come in four volumes at about 30-35$ per volume. They also have the absolutely beautiful Canons to the Theotokos from Small Compline for every day of the week, as well as the beautiful Canons to the Trinity from the Midnight Office of regular Sundays.

You can buy the complete set of the Menaion from them, but at $100-120 a pop for 12 that gets pretty expensive.

To answer your question, the edition of the Uniontown Menaion (1985) that I have has the three stikhera for the Dedication of the Church of the Resurrection and the three for Cornelius, Priest-Martyr. You might want to invest in this sometime as well as consider Mother Mary/Bishop Kallistos' Festal Menaion as well.

You would need the full 12-month volumes of Menaion such as the SJKP one I mentioned above (the expensive ones) for the Menaion canons that you mention.

If you have the complete Oktoechos you can always do one or more of the Canons for Matins of that day if it is not one of the great feasts with a prescribed Canon (usually there are at least two Canons per day prescribed in the daily SJKP Oktoechos). Really the complete Oktoechos by SJKP is a must for anyone wishing to serve English daily offices from the full Slavonic Oktoechos.

Use economia/common sense if you can't feasibly get all of the texts (which is sometimes expensive and prohibitive). I have the feeling that God understands if you substitute a Canon from the Oktoechos instead of the proper one from a complete Menaion.

Thanks, Ed and God bless.

Tony,

Thanks for the post. I think we are in agreement here. The cantor needs to be familiar enough with the services and the Typicon to be able to follow the pastor�s directives. If the pastor were to say: �Take six stichera at Psalm 140, 3 for the Sunday, 3 for the Feast and the proper stichera at �Glory� and �Now and ever�� the cantor should be able to do so. One would need at least memorize the general order the stichera would be taken (Resurrectional for Sunday, feast, etc.) in order to be able to do this. I don�t think that the pastor should need to provide a written list for each service (as in �take two stichera in Resurrectional Tone 2 on page x of Book A, two stichera for the feast from Book B, etc.�). I don�t see where my posts on this subject indicate anything else. It appears that I was unclear in what I wrote and apologize for my lack of clarity.

Admin