www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Presence/Manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

Christ is Risen!
Indeed, He is Risen!

I have a question regarding the ability to feel/perceive the presence of the Holy Spirit. When I served in the Navy (a long time ago), my roommate's girlfriend would occasionally come back to our apartment from church crying a boatload of tears(they are COGIC members-Church of God In Christ). I finally got the nerve to ask her what was wrong. She explained it was tears of joy from being filled with the Holy Spirit. I then asked her how she knew this happened. She explained that she felt a warm, wave type of sensation that eminated up and down from her spine area and then radiated into her body, and she had been taught this was the touching of the Holy Spirit upon her being!

Question then: Is this a valid sign or mainfestation of the Holy Spirit? Is this outside the norms of the Church? I am looking for further insight.

Thank you for your time.

Michael (a sinner)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friend in Christ:

Eastern Christianity believes in an experiential relationship with the Holy Spirit--however, this relationship is grounded in two things: Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy, true Belief and true Practice rooted in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Eastern Church has had many saints that have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit where they could feel the Spirit working within them--in their body. The Church also recognizes that the Spirit may work outside the Church to lead people to a deeper relatioship with Him. I do not doubt the authenticity of many who experience the Spirit outside the eccesial structure of the Church. But as we have the fulness of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments, whose presence is objective, and we also have the fulness of the Faith, which has been passed down from the Apostles to us: those who are in the Catholic Church need not seek another place for the Spirit of Christ.

Sometimes, those outside of the Church have been brought up without a knowledge of the truth or have been taught that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not Christian; and out of their lack of knowledge they reject what they do not know: God has mercy on them, still loves them and grants them the succor of His Spirit.

I hope that helps.

In Christ Jesus,

Robert

Sounds like prelest to me...

Michael,

When I was involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal one basic point was made about being filled with the Holy Spirit: Feelings and outward manifestaions are not proof that one is filled with the HS. A person may feel nothing. The "proof" is faith, "Ask and you shall receive" and a change in behavior.

Many Evangelicals believe the same thing.

My daughter was confirmed last week. She did not feel any different, yet by faith we know that the sacrament is a reality. By the bishop's words she is "sealed with the Holy Spirit."

Confirmation is more geared toward the fruit of the HS, peace, joy, love, etc. ...my memory is giving out... and things like fortitude and fear of the Lord... Maybe someone can help me with that list.

I have seen some persons weep when they ask for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. God grace reaches our body, soul, snd spirit. Some people's temperment would cause them to cry when they receive an outpouring of the Spirit.

I hope that helps.

Paul

Mr Yong:

It would be prelest if it these people were being self-deceived, however in many experiences people, who are not in the Church, have genuinely encountered the Holy Spirit. We cannot pontificate about movements, charismatic et al, that the Holy Father have approved as having a place within the modern Church. The Charismatic movement has been considered a genuine movement of the Spirit by a few Popes; lets be fair--not eveything is of the Devil. As Eastern Christians we should not fall into superstition and fear.

In Christ,

Robert

Michael

To be perfectly honest - I have been reading this and worying over it.

She has been taught this ??!!?? Was it before or after her first experience of this sensation ??

Things like this really do worry me - people can be so receptive to inferences - look at examples of the 'Toronto Blessing"

Can we be sure that things like these are Gifts of the Holy Spirit - do we really have to be aware of a physical sensation to know we have been touched by Him ?.

What happens if this young person has these experiences for a while and then they stop - is she then to believe that there is something wrong with her as she is no longer feeling that which she was taught was the ' touching of the Holy Spirit ' ?

Anhelyna

Hi Michael,


In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, we have experienced the presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit in many, many ways.

Our experience is that there is no way to define or predict how the Holy Spirit will act in our lives.

We have, however, found a practical rule of thumb to help us during the discerment process for an alleged manifestation of the Spirit.

The rule is, quite unsurprisingly, three-fold:

1. An alleged manifestation of the Spirit has to be in accord with the Deposit of Faith as expressed by the Scriptures, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church. If you receive a "prophesy" instructing you to abort an unborn child, that cannot come from the Spirit of God.

2. An alleged manifestation of the Spirit has to be useful for the individual receiving it, for his/her community and for the Church as a whole. If "the Spirit" moves you to cause division, confusion or scandal, then "the Spirit" cannot be the Holy Spirit.

3. An alleged manifestation of the Spirit has to subject itself to the proper authority of the hierarchy of the Church, including Pope, Bishop and Pastor. The Holy Spirit will never move you to go against the legitimate authority He instituted in His Church.

Once an alleged manifestation of the spirt passes all three criteria, then we can take a second, closer look. If not, then we do not even bother to consider the possibility of divine manifestation.

The particular case you mention, in my opinion, may be worth taking this second look:

1. God is near us always. If a sensation, a feeling, etc. makes us more aware of that reality of our faith, then it is according to Divine Revelation.

2. Knowing and experiencing God near us gives us joy and peace, and strengthens our faith and our commitment to live a Christian life. I find that useful enough.

3. It is very hard to evaluate fidelity to authority within the context of a non-Apostolic denomination, however, I am pretty sure the girl is in good standing in her community, and it's rather hard to imagine how a feeling of warmth, which makes one more aware of the presence of God can go against legitimate Church authorities.

On the other hand, it is important to consider other possible natural and supernatural sources, such as group pressure, shifts in hormonal balance, phsychological conditions, demonic activity, etc.

Discernment is never a simple thing, not even when it is for a simple thing like a feeling of warmth.

But as the Lord says: Do not be afraid. Trust God.

Shalom,
Memo.

Christ is in our Midst!

I would be very wary of any of these things. I was heavily involved for a while in the Charismatic movement at Franciscan University of Steubenville, including being part of a deliverance team headed up by a couple of priests doing minor exorcisms. After a couple of years, I was left very disturbed by much of what goes on in charismaticism. When I read Fr. Seraphim Rose's critique of it in "Orthodoxy and Religion of the Future" I felt that he had finally put words to what I had felt and intuited for a long time. Remember, the devil can also give us plenty of sensations and feelings, as well as work miracles, such as the sorcerers who mimicked some of what Moses did, even if they weren't successful in the end.

I think that just as important as all of this being in the eccelsial context as Memo said, I would take the advice of the Athonite Elder in "A Night in the Desert of the Holy Moutain". He says that any mystical experience can only be valid and of God when it comes through obedience, because God only comes to us through our humility. In other words, if mystical experiences are the result of strict adherence to the prayer rule and advice given us by our spiritual father/mother, and the experience moves us to confess it to them and moves us to repentence, then we can know it is of God.

I saw too many things in my days with the Charismatics that ranged from mystical experience to emotionalism to channeling to outright demonic manifestation, all of which was acclaimed as being "of the Spirit". Problem is, it isn't always clear which spirit. That is why obedience to a spiritual father is necessary in these matters. I know of too many, myself included, who were left spiritually damaged by their involvement with charismaticism due to a lack of clear direction.

As for your friend, I can't know the way the Divine Wind blows. However, seeing as she was outside the Church, not in a relationship with a spiritual father or engaged in traditional ascesis (I'm guessing), I would be very suspicious.

Justin

Memo,

The great spiritual writers of the Church, especially the Philokalia, is repleat with examples of this. A good synopsis is found in the book I mentioned above "A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain" and in other writings of Metropolitan Hierotheos. St. Alphonsus Liguori in "The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection" and (I believe) St. John of the Cross discuss it also. The devil mimicks true mystical experience, appearing as an angel of light, in order to instill pride, self-adulation, and spiritual blindness, even if it is very, very subtle. Again, these things should always be submitted to a spiritual father (one who is himself advanced and experienced in these matters).

Christ is Risen,

Justin

I am familiar with the writings of St. John of the Cross on mystical theology. His advice for manifestations of this nature is to ignore them. The difficulty of discerning spirits can be complicated enough, but in this case it sounds as if the woman in question probably does not have a discerning spiritual father to whom to submit. This would be unusual in protestant circles, as usually it is left to the individual. Warm and fuzzy feelings happen and are sometimes genuinely of the Holy Spirit, even in protestant circles. This may be a way that God is using to draw her to a deeper and more faithful prayer life. Also, sometimes very strong spiritual experiences can produce what is termed an "overflowing to the senses." That is, the power of the Holy Spirit produces an overflowing in the soul that spills over into the senses and causes various physical manifestations. But once the person becomes more accustomed to this deeper form of prayer, these manifestations disappear. Another case might be that the person has a special need for a perceptible manifestation of the Lord's presence, which may be given for a period of consolation in a time of testing. But the bottom line is: these types of spiritual favors, if indeed they are genuine, do not normally last for a long period of time. When they do, they tend to become as was stated above, occasions of pride, etc. In this case, the Lord knows how to correct us from depending on them. He withdraws them, to test our faith.

Genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirit are normally imperceptible. And according to John of the Cross, it is their very imperceptibility which makes them occasions for a growth in faith, rather than another earthly attachment. He is wise enough to understand that even spiritual gifts are enough to detract us from the true Giver of the gifts when they become a focus. Also, any manifestations of genuine spiritual gifts that overflow to the senses are evidence of our need for further purification, for the pure soul is as glass, and true prayer produces virtue rather than sensible manifestations of "the Spirit."

In the end, it is necessary to always present these types of events to a competent spiritual father, and to submit to his authority, that we may not be lead astray by our own appetites.

Brother and sisters,
Tears of repentance are truly tears of joy, knowing that the Holy Spirit has unveiled our own sinfulness and shown to us in a very personal way His Mercy and love. This is an acknowledged Gift of the Holy Spirit. Bishop Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Way", p.101 quotes St Isaac the Syrian regarding this gift.
Years ago I experienced this gift (and am humbly grateful) and have seen others experience it also.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit has been very visible recently with the film "The Passion of the Christ."
Perhaps we put too many limits on God's gifts, maybe that is why Faith in America is in need of re-invigoration. "Let God be God" and some day, God willing, we meet Him face to face we will understand what our limited mortal intelligence cannot comprehend.
Humbly,
Deacon Paul

Deacon Paul,

We are all the proverbial glass of chocolate milk. The glass of milk has had chocolate syrup poured in it...ie..baptism & chrismation...all the fruits and charisms of the Holy Spirit are given. Some point in our life we have to make the decision for Christ ourselves, we must say yes to Him. When we do the chocolate syrup is stirred up off the bottom of the glass and we become like chocolate milk....

I know that is a korny analogy, but it works! We become full of Jesus and everything He ever intended for us to have living and working in a "fruitfilled" life with Him happens.

Pani Rose

Paul B.

Amen to what you have posted!


Porter \o/

I just want to point out that it is obvious that someone recieves spirit in charasamatic churches. The question is what spirit.

My guess is that it's the spirit of the charasmatic church which is a spirit in Christ, but not necessarly Christ himself.

I know of twelve men in history who experienced Christ directly more than once a week.