www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Jewish Roots of Christianity...

Hello, everyone.

I just wanted to tell you all that I have, like Brother Vassili before me, become a ba'al teshuva (returnee) in a Torah-observant Messianic Jewish congregation, Synagogue Beit HaShem. My Jewish soul needed to find its way back to the Jewish faith of my ancestors, but I could not give up my Messiah. Therefore, I have been (for the past 4 weeks or so) studying as a ba'al teshuva (returnee) in Messianic Judaism. We are basically like Orthodox Jews who believe in Y'shua (Jesus) and very much like the group that Brother Vassili has joined. I have not been required to have a (second) baptism, and since I was already circumcized, I have not been required to have any kind of procedure in that way either. I have just declared my willingness to return to the faith of my fathers and have been accepted. I will be taking formal classes on the Messianic Jewish faith, traditions and customs, and also to learn to chant the Hebrew for the synagogue service. The services at my synagogue are entirely in Hebrew. Also, I have begun observing the commandments, keeping strictly kosher, and keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) and the Biblical Feasts. I do not expect you to understand, but I just wanted to let you know where I've gone to. I wish you all the best and pray for G-d's blessings upon you all.

If you have anything that you wish to say to me, please write me at <theodosy@yahoo.com>.

B'rakhot b'Shem Y'shua haMaschiach! (Blessings in the Name of Y'shua [Jesus] the Messiah!)

In the Name of Y'shua,
Timothy D. Herman
(now known online by my Hebrew name Moshe ben Avraham Avinu)

"Sh'ma Yisra'el, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad. Barukh Shem k'vol malkhooto l'olam va'ed!"

Timothy,
You have got to be joking! I thought you were studying as a seminarian to enter the priesthood. What's with you people pretending to come into these forums and to pretend that you are Byzantine Catholics or Orthodox? Why don't you people be honest about your religious beliefs and affiliations if not your tendencies about apostazing? I went to back to previous written posts by you that revealed your strong attachment to the Byzantine Church. Do you remember our dialogues? What is it in this Jewish faith that attracts you other than your name written in Hebrew? Why don't you learn Arabic and view the Orthodox Christian faith known and understood in the Arabic? I am blessed by Allah to know Orthodoxy in the Arabic and English. I have a great attachment to Semitic languages since I do speak Arabic. Please remember that the Arabs were present on Pentecost and are one of the ideal witnesses to Christ known in Arabic as Yasou' Al-Maseeh. To know Christ from the road you are taking is a heretical one. You have free will and by that will you will know the truth one day.

Bismil Rub Yasou' Al-Maseeh,
Rob

Dear Theodosy,

I am extremely disheartened by this news. We were all so inspired by your love for the Byzantine Catholic Church. Your willingness to abandon it truly breaks my heart.

I guess it was just a passing phase for you. Does your former "spiritual father" know about this? How does he feel about your abandonment of your previous spiritual home?

There is one thing that I would ask you to carefully consider: the importance of the Eucharist. Christ taught, "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, there will be no life within you." As you certainly know, from studying the Church Fathers, the early Christians clearly believed that the Eucharist is indeed the very body and blood of Christ. As I am certain that you also know, only the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have maintained the traditional faith in the Eucharist. Please consider this carefully before parting with the Eucharist.

God bless,
Anthony

To everyone else,

I must ask a question. Recently, Moose told the story of a convert to Orthodoxy who became ultra-Orthodox, complete with all the bells and whistles. This convert to Orthodoxy, who was more Orthodox than the Patriarch of Constantinople, then quickly left to become a Mormon.

It seems that we are witnessing a similar phenomenon here with our beloved Theodosy. As a Russian Catholic, he was more Orthodox than the Orthodox. He knew the Church Fathers (apparently) rather well, studied the Philokalia, prayed the Jesus Prayer in Slavonic, and knew all the right Orthodox lingo and traditions. He even had a long-haired "spiritual father" who directed him towards a monastic lifestyle. But sadly, Theodosy has left us.

Is Eastern Christianity just a hollow shell, full of externals, that one can easily put on and just as easily leave behind?

I am beginning think that this is an accute danger.

Anthony

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I can give no substantial comfort because I am so new, yet not so new. I've studied the Fathers for years and have finally come home. Yet, I never worshipped in the Byzantine Church until this spring.

My insight is that it is not a hollow shell. Our priests must also be teachers, which mine is. Do you percieve a lack of teaching in other parishes?

My emphasis upon teaching is prompted by the fact that we live in a pluralistic society and to some extent that pluralism has spread world wide. With pluralism comes confusing challenges and often a venue for the devil. Let us teach the Scriptures. Let us give meaningful times for full surrender to Christ, not only through the Eucharist, but through confession and instruction.

Dan Lauffer

Dear friends,

I did very much love the Eastern Church, but G-d has guided me out of it. The reason for this is certainly not that the Eastern Churches are hollow as, indeed, they are not. However, I have come to the realization that I, as I am of Jewish background, have been living without a true identity for my entire life. I was baptized Roman Catholic as an infant, and joined the Byzantine rite four years ago. I was looking for something that could connect me with my Jewish roots. My Jewish soul has not rested, but has brought me out of Christianity entirely to be a true Jew. Of course, although I am not a Christian (as I do not consider myself one), I have not been able to give up my belief in Y'shua (Jesus) as the Messiah and Saviour. Therefore, I have become a "Torah-observant Messianic Jew". This is a Jew who follows Orthodox Jewish ritual and practice, keeps kosher, wears a headcovering at all times, and believes in Y'shua (Jesus). Throughout my entire life, I have been missing something: this Jewish identity. Now, I believe, I am closer to Y'shua then I ever was. His first followers were NOT "Christians" (there was no such thing at the time). They were Jews. Y'shua Himself not only followed the Jewish laws, He FULFILLED them. This does not mean that He destroyed them, for He Himself said that He did not come to destroy but to fulfill or complete them. Y'shua was a Torah-observing, kosher-keeping Jew. His mother, Miriam (Mary) was herself a Jew. Yosef (Joseph) was a Jew. In my mind, and the mind of all observant Messianic Jews, G-d's true religion was, is, and always shall be Judaism. This is not necessarily the Judaism of those who do not believe in Y'shua, but of those who accept Him and love Him as the Messiah and Saviour of all, Jews and Gentiles alike. We believe in keeping the laws (to the best of our ability), in keeping the Jewish traditions and customs, and in believing in both the Torah ("Old(er) Testament") and the B'rit Chadashah ("New(er) Covenant"). We believe that Y'shua Himself followed all Jewish customs, as these things are written in the B'rit Chadashah. We believe in His divinity and His humanity. We believe all these things, and we also believe (rightfully) that we are Jews and will always be Jews.

I know that you will most likely not understand all this, and you must know that your faith is not empty at all, but I cannot see the fulness of Y'shua's teachings in it. I shall not be returning to this forum any longer, so if you'd like, please e-mail me privately and we can speak more.

To answer some of your other questions, yes I have kept in contact with my former spiritual father (in fact he is coming to visit me this Wed.). I have considered what Y'shua taught about His Body and Blood, and indeed His teaching lead me back to His Jewishness.

Blessings in the Name of Y'shua!

Shalom,
Moshe ben Avraham
(formerly "Theodosy" and still known among goyim [non-Jews] as Timothy David Herman)

>>Is Eastern Christianity just a hollow shell, full of externals, that one can easily put on and just as easily leave behind?<<

No. If Theodosy (or anyone else, for that matter) can so easily throw away all that we believe then it becomes clear that he has never had more than a glimmer of faith and that he has never developed the two-pronged relationship with Jesus Christ (personal and communal). It is possible that he is only at the beginning of his journey. Might I ask that we all pray for him?

Dear Moose,
How can you say these things? I have more faith in Y'shua than I ever had before, and my family and friends can testify to that. As to truth, do you think that a man named Jesus really lived on earth at any time? I don't. The only-begotten Son of G-d recorded in the B'rit Chadashah was named Y'shua ben Yosef (Y'shua, son of Joseph), even though He was not born of Joseph but by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit). This was the custom that was prevailing at His time in history. "Jesus" comes from the Greek Iesous, as you are all more than aware. His name was Y'shua, and his title was actually "haMaschiach" (the Messiah), which is what "Christ(os) means. To call Him "Jesus Christ" is to call Him by a name which He never once heard while on earth. His mother Miriam called Him Y'shua, which is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew Yahoshua, or "Yah(weh) is salvation". His name signifies to all that He is indeed the Jewish messiah.

Shalom b'Y'shua,
Moshe ben Avraham

>>As to truth, do you think that a man named Jesus really lived on earth at any time? I don't.<<

Yes. Simply put, if you do not believe that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ, that he was crucified, buried, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven for the sake of our salvation, then you are not and have never been a Christian. If this is the case, than your devotion to Eastern Christianity was nothing more than a hollow shell, offering no salvation.

Dear Moshe ben Avraham:


"It is good to give thanks unto the Lord," and I am happy for you; happy that you are struggling to find a way that will draw you closer to G-d and bring peace to your soul. But, I must admit, I am saddened that your search has taken you away from us and the true faith passed on to us by the Apostles, the Holy Catholic Faith.


I am also saddened by your rejection of Christianity, the apostolic faith of the Jewish Fathers and Mothers of Christianity and their Gentile confreres. Most specifically, I am saddened by your lack of appreciation for the rivers of blood shed by the martyrs of the early Church; by far, the great majority of the martyrs of the first three or four centuries were not Jews but Gentiles. And since then...Gentiles. These goyim shed rivers of blood for Yeshua Ha Meshiach and I am sure you only need to be reminded of that historical fact. Please do not look down on us "poor and miserable"(Just kidding!) goyim, after all Jesus is the Logos and He created us with both salvation and martyrdom in mind and the consolation and pure joy of living in His Mysteries (Sacraments). Your messianic congregation can never offer you that true source of heavenly bliss. It is our great pleasure to serve Him and partake of His great gifts that He has so generously bestowed upon us as Catholic Christians.

I do not think you know how much we cared for you. If you have misjudged HaShem's will for your still so very young life....well...we will keep the porch light burning. If you are in HaShem's will, all will be well and I wish you deep peace and tranquility. BTW: Moshe ben Avraham, if you never become a priest, I pray you will become a rabbi. G-d's will be done. You aren't a Kohan, are you? And don't forget, there are many more Catholicis of Jewish decent than most realize. Eastern Slavic churches are...well...like I said....!


In Christ our True God who raised Lazarus (a good Jew!) from the dead.


[This message has been edited by LazarusDos (edited 07-31-2000).]

My dear brothers in Christ,

Please, let us PRAY for our brother, and for one another, and leave to the Lord all judgements about the depth of anybody's faith.


My dear brother Moshe,

The hunger for a home which speaks to one's roots is powerful indeed. I think it's shown in the desire of folks in the Association of Hebrew Catholics for a "Hebrew Rite" - a Catholicism that would embrace the Jewishness AND the Christianity of its adherents. So far it's not happened.

I confess to the occasional longing for SOMEONE else in the Church who has a clue what hamentaschen are. If I didn't know that I cannot live without the Sacraments, those feelings might gain more prominence, but on the whole, I am awfully lucky to have found a home in the Church - which has its foundations so deep in Judaism that no service could be celebrated without the very words taken from the Torah, the Haftorah and the Psalms.

You haven't chosen an easy path. We Uniate scum are well regarded compared to Messianic Jews - a puzzlement to most Christians, and roundly reviled and despised by most Jews.

Mean time, (Lordy, I hate transliteration!!!) V'ahavta et Adonai Elohecha, b'chol l'vavcha, u v'chol nafsh'cha, u'vchol m'odecha.

Shalom, my brother. May the Lord grant you peace in your comings and goings, and your
sojurns. You will be missed. If you eventually find that He calls you back to this shore, even for a visit, know that you are always welcome in at least one hovel, and I make a MEAN matzoh ball.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Theodosy: Regardless of whether he was called Jesus, Teacher, Messiah, J'shua, or Emmanuel (the anointed one), we all know who He was and what He stood for- and preached against (Pharasitic Judaism). In Catolicism/Othodoxy there is a thread connecting back to the Church He established complete with Apostolic Succession, Holy Tradition, Eucharistic Real Presence, and all of His other teachings. I wonder if the thread of your group goes back to this same Pharasitic Judaism and is the forerunner of todays modern Judaism, or is it merely another modern day Evangelical Startup with a Jewish twist, having nothing but a short thread coming from nowhere? Do you think He made a mistake in establishing our Church, whose roots, foundation, tradition, and practices came from Judaism, -here today as an extension of the New Covenant?
Could be a big risk for someone simply seeking a comfortable Jewish Home, when a more complete home may have been here all along.
Jim

>>Please, let us PRAY for our brother, and for one another, and leave to the Lord all judgements about the depth of anybody's faith.<<

Sharon,

Prayer is always called for and was what I requested for our brother, Theodosy. There are times, however, when it is necessary to bluntly call someone to account. If a person does not believe and has never believed the central elements of our Faith, than we do no justice or kindness to this person by allowing him or her to think they are a Christian. This is a mere statement of the teaching of our Church and in no way a judgement of any individual. Only God knows the heart and it is He alone who loves and who judges.

Moose: I think Theodosy's reference to " a man named Jesus who ever lived on earth" referred only to the NAME "Jesus" rather than his person. He didn't deny who HE WAS, BUT WHAT NAME HE WENT BY, (I wonder how they handle the description of Pilate nailed to the cross - Jesus of Nazareth - King of the Jews). Messianic Jews, and Jews for Jesus, believe in Jesus as Messiah but I guess this group does not refer to him as Jesus, claiming He never heard that name. But maybe there is more than the name Y'shua, lest we forget the answer to the question "Who do you say that I am?" was not Y'shua, but the divinely inspired "The Messiah - The Son Of the Living God" by Peter which just happened to be the foundation of our Church.
Jim
PS - I really enjoy your posts!


[This message has been edited by Jim McD-STL (edited 07-31-2000).]

Shalom, friends!

As a Torah Observant Messianic Jew, I most certainly DO believe in the one you call "Jesus" and I call Y'shua, Who is True G-d and True Man, the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, YHWH. We just do not use the name Jesus, but we certainly believe in Him and His Teachings. We believe that He was born of Miriam, a virgin, who was impregnated not by the seed of man but by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit of G-d).

We are not "Jews for Jesus". They are an evangelical organization founded by Protestant Christians to convert Jews.

We do not believe that if a Jew believes in Y'shua/Jesus, he loses his Jewishness. Rather, we believe that he "completes" his Jewishness, in a sense, by accepting He who is the Messiah.

I most certainly do have great respect for the gentile martyrs who died for Y'shua/Jesus in the first centuries of Christianity.

It is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles that the followers of Y'shua/Jesus were first called "Christians" in Antioch (Syria). It is also evident that these early followers were non-Jews ('goyim' or 'gentiles'). However, if you see, many of these converted officially to Judaism, and even if they didn't, they followed Jewish customs and traditions.

If these followers of Y'shua/Jesus were first called Christians in 200 A.D. (is that the correct date?), then what were they called before then. If only in the third century were they pulling away from Judaism and their Jewish roots, what were they like before then?

It is quite obvious from the B'rit Chadashah (New(er) Testament, that these earliest followers were all Jews. They were "zealous for the law" (Torah), and observed the 7th-day Sabbath. They celebrated the festivals, and even went to the Temple before its destruction. Y'shua Himself did this. It is interesting to note that the woman "with an issue of blood", who is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, touched "the fringe of his garment". This is what it says in Hebrew. Not "the hem" but "the fringe" (tzitzit). This refers to Y'shua's garment, which, like all observant Jews, had fringes at the corner. As a Jewish rabbi (teacher), Y'shua did these exact same things. He prayed in Hebrew the same prayers which Jews pray now. He spoke in the synagogues (just like any other rabbi or teacher). He was a Jew, and His Name was Y'shua. You may call him Jesus, and even though that is not really what His name was, it is the same one.

So, really, I have not abandoned any Christian belief. I just do not call myself Christian, but a Jew. Just like Y'shua. I must say that I love you all, and thank you for your prayers. Any questions, just e-mail me.

Shalom b'Y'shua,
Moshe ben Avraham