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What are your thoughts about penance, in general ?

-- What, overall, is the Eastern Christian understanding of penance ?

-- How would you define penance ?

-- What purpose does penance serve ?

--Can people do penance on behalf of / for the good of others ?

-- How to draw the line between penance and masochism ?

I sincerely want to know because I need to better understand penance. Thank you for your replies.

-- John

John,

The best I can offer is from a confessor's point of view. Penance is not meant to be a punishment, but an aid in helping the penitent refocus their spiritual ife and hopefully work through an area of spiritual difficulty or laxity.

Generally, I would hear a confession, and what would come to mind would be something that have a common link to most that is being confessed. I would then ask some questions to clarify this and find out if my thought may correct. Then I would counsel the person regarding this, and finally assign a "penance", i.e. a prayer rule or task in order to help overcome this spiritual difficulty. I have had penitents come back with the same difficulty and would either modify the "penance" or have them continue to apply the same original one.

Confession is like visiting a doctor for our spiritual ills. The doctor can only treat what is told to him and by the symptoms. Sometimes medications must be regulated or changed. The spiritual doctor (confessor) strives never to harm the penitent, but to help cure him. Sometimes this takes repeated treatments and ongoing visits.

The confessor that is wise, will never give the penitent anything more than the penitent can handle spiritually. The penitent may want more, but the a wise confessor would rather build up the spiritual medicine slowly as to not have the penitent be overwhelmed, then spiritually harmed.

FYI, I have had penitents ask for stricter "penances". I generally refuse, for this is not what I have felt direction towards. Most times, the penitent does not complain, and we work at it for whatever the time requires. The ones that are not satisfied with penances time after time, are told they are free to find another confessor. I will state though that those requesting the most severe penances, are not leeting guide direct their spiritual healing, but rather they are.

I know this sounds disjointed. I had a bad night when it came to sleep, and the morning pot of coffee has not kicked in yet. I pray that it helps you in your question.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

PS I also had to be as general as possible for the obvious reasons.

Dear John,

Certainly, the East sees penance as something that can be applied to others, for their good, their conversion etc.

As Father has said, penance is "medicinal" but Orthodoxy has tended to produce monastic saints that have done great penances ie. carrying heavy chains with iron Crosses on their bodies etc.

This is to discipline the body and bring it into subjection under the Law of God.

It is also meant to be part of the "works of repentance and conversion" that are necessary following confession and the act of conversion.

The Orthodox Church teaches that anyone who dies before fulfilling these works (clearly meant as a kind of satisfaction) will go to hades until such time as their purification is completed and then they are released from there to heaven.

The Orthodox Church has defined that there is no such separate state or place as "purgatory" but only hades where the souls of all those who are not worthy of heaven go for purification, including those who have committed serious sin. Everything else is up to God's mercy until the Second Coming of Christ and the Final Judgement.

If I am not mistaken, Orthodoxy sees our souls as vessels that require a constant flow of the Holy Oil of God's Divine Grace through continual prayer, fasting, good works, etc.

That oil can be gathered to overflowing and can fall on others to assist them.

Alex

Dear Fr. Anthony and Alex,

Thank you for your replies, and please forgive me for my very late response.

You both have given me much to think on.

I know Purgatory is a sensitive topic, but in my little opinion it seems that both East and West are saying essentially the same thing. The souls of the just who are not completely purified from sin must somehow be purified before they can be admitted to the all-pure presence of God. God be praised for this mercy, and God have mercy on those being purified: here and hereafter. And I sometimes wonder if we (East and West) would do betterif we would just leave this awesome mystery as a mystery: of God's love and mercy.

The Mystery of Confession is indeed a mystery to me -- not for the belief in it but for the idea that God uses us human beings to effect His forgiveness. I am humbled and in awe of this: this theosis through Incarnation which Christ shares with us.

Dr. Alex, you wrote

That is so true. I have experienced that in so many ways, by the loving-kindness of people who have helped me. Including at this forum. Now I am reading a book about an Orthodox priest-monk called Father Arseny. He was a starets in the Soviet gulags, and he seems to epitomize what you were saying. So have so many other saints, East and West. I tend to think the Mother of God did so the most.

Thank you both for your good words.

-- John

Dear Alex,

I would very much appreciate if you could remember where exactly you read or learned this...it makes great sense to me and is how I believe, but there are so many conflicting ideas about prayer for the dead, etc., in Orthodoxy today. If one tries to put forth a belief they need to back it up with something quite concrete these days.

Personally, I think that there has been alot of Protestant theology infused into some jurisdictions of Orthodoxy *in America*, and I qualify this because I have actually heard priests say that memorial services are for the living or only to remember the deceased.

Thank you in advance for the help, Dr. Roman!

In Christ,
Alice

Alex,

If I understand, the Orthodox teaching is:

Heaven
Hades
Hell

Where Hades is equivalent to the RC Purgatory?

mike

Dear Alice,

There was a post here some time ago giving the name and date of the local Orthodox Council that defined this . . . I don't remember these, but I do remember the content of the definition . . .

I guess I'm sort of, well, useles, eh?

I'll try and locate it in my copy of the "Rudder."

I would say, Beloved and Dear Alice, that those Orthodox priests who say those things aren't doing so because of a "Protestant" influence.

It is more a "Catholic" influence . . .

It used to be an argument (that actually converted a few Orthodox I knew to Catholicism) that said that if we pray for the repose of the souls of people, this means they are not yet in heaven (if they were there, they wouldn't need our prayer!).

And so, Catholic apologists would pose the question: "If such souls aren't yet in Heaven and they're not in Hell (for then prayer for them would be to no avail), then where are they if not in . . . purgatory?"

The logic here is powerful. So powerful in fact that St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv made no bones about accepting the Western doctrine of Purgatory in his original "Catechism" - it was removed by the Orthodox Patriarchs, but St Peter insisted on keeping it in within his own Metropolia.

But the fact is that Orthodoxy has defined Hades as a place where souls need not be doomed for eternity, but for as long as necessary for them to be purified - they didn't see the need to invent other "states" or "places."

Those and others who misrepresent Orthodox teaching about prayer for the dead are doing so because they reject Catholicism's "rational logic" about purgatory but do so without presenting Orthodoxy's actual teaching on the subject.

This is very much like the old Catholic logic about the Immaculate Conception. IF one rejected the RC teaching on the Immaculate Conception, THEN this must mean he or she says that the Mother of God had a "stain of Original Sin" on her soul at her Conception . . ."

I still hear the above today!

The notion that there could be another explanation that has been in the Orthodox liturgical tradition since the 6th century via the feast of the "Conception of St Anne" once one parts company with Augustinian notions of Original Sin is ignored. Living in the West as we do, the influence of Latin perspectives is all-pervasive in this way.

Alex

Dear Mike,

Actually "Hades" is the RC "purgatory" and "hell" combined.

In RC eschatology, "purgatory" and "hell" are both places of suffering (cleansing etc.) with the exception, of course, that one can get out of purgatory to go to heaven.

"Hades" in Orthodox eschatology is where the souls of those who have committed grave sin and where those who are not yet purified for entrance to heaven go - it is one and the same place but from whence those who, before the Second Coming of Christ, have achieved purification may leave for Heaven.

In Orthodox eschatology, "Heaven" before the Second Coming of Christ is really a "Forecourt" of Heaven and "Hades" is a "Forecourt" of Hell.

Ultimately, our final destination for eternity will be decided at the Final Judgement with the Second Coming of Christ.

The Kyivan Orthodox Metropolitan and Church Father, St Peter Mohyla, taught in his Catechism (yes, he was Latinized too . . . ) that even when we see someone who dies after committing a grave sin that we suppose would earn them an eternity of hell, our responsibility as Christians is to pray earnestly to God to ask Him not to impute the sin to that soul etc.

That always spoke very loudly to my heart!

Alex

Alice

If you mean by participating in Protestant oriented ecumenical organizations like the NCC, then I would agree that has been problematic. If that's not what you mean, I would like to hear exactly what you're speaking about.

What do you mean?

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I mean *exactly* what I mean! :p

If you want specifics, here is one: the priest at my grandfather's memorial service's dinner was talking to my Episcopalian aunt. She asked what exactly this service was all about. He responded: "oh it is just a service to remember the dead and nothing more".

Sometimes in our quest for converts, it seems to me, in my opinion, the theology of our faith sometimes becomes diluted and twisted for what we *think* will suit their sensibilities better (as in the example with my aunt)

I love and cherish our converts, but in my humble opinion, I think that this method set forth by *some* of our clergy is wrong, and is only creating a muddled sea of different theological philosophies and traditions from church to church and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

It has come to the point that if I need answers or confirmation of some tradition or belief, I will go straight to sources in the Church of Greece *in* Greece to get the unbiased and unchanged truth. If I couldn't do that, I would seek out someone from ROCOR.

Anyway, the list you would like me to be explicit about could go on with more examples, but why would I do that? To do so would be scandalous, non-constructive and non-productive.

You know, Andrew, there is no perfect place, person, or church on this earth. The Church is perfect and spotless as it is the Bride of Christ, but it is composed of imperfect individuals such as myself. That is why I believe that we must all look and concentrate on what is good in our faith and in individuals, be the best examples of Christian love that we can, embrace our the beauty of our faith traditions, and look towards our own personal salvation.

Forgive me if I have scandalized you with the experiences of my forty some years totally immersed in the Orthodox Church, which I do love, but love doesn't mean overlooking shortcomings...and I believe that should hold true for Orthodox as well as for Catholics. There should not be a double standard in trying to preserve the apostolic faith, truths, and piety handed down to both sides through the ages.

Humbly in Christ,
Alice

Since we are on this topic, I personally know of a situation in a middle school of several yrs ago. An eight grader pulled a gun and shot a teacher to death..as the man lay dying..seconds later, he put a gun to his head and killed himself. As of that time, I was an Orthodox convert, and, if I had been in my previous mindset of western schismatic protestantism..."to hell he would go!!!" BUT>>, I felt great sadness, (I was aquainted with both), the teacher was RC, and the boy was not churched till but a few yrs before this (don't know of any baptism). But, I will remember to pray for him, at least at that yearly anniversary. What would one say to this..(REAL) situation. Any priests surely may weigh in here..(would be appreciated), or others expert in Church doctrine. Thanks to all, and remember to intercede for those lost in such confused circumstances. Thanks, mik

Dear Mike,

That is a beautiful thing you are doing in praying for the deceased. This is so intrinsic to Orthodox belief and so important and loving.

In Christ,
Alice

Orthodox Catholic posted
"It used to be an argument (that actually converted a few Orthodox I knew to Catholicism) that said that if we pray for the repose of the souls of people, this means they are not yet in heaven (if they were there, they wouldn't need our prayer!).

And so, Catholic apologists would pose the question: "If such souls aren't yet in Heaven and they're not in Hell (for then prayer for them would be to no avail), then where are they if not in . . . purgatory?"'

My understanding is that prayer, like God is timeless. The Church and Prayer are not limited by time or space therefore our prayers today can effect those that lived their earthly lives in the past. Our prayers can effect their earthly lives as well as their post earthly life journies/Theosis/Deification to gain Heaven. Therefore, even if we pray for those in Heaven, we can effect the fact that they got there.

Alice

In my experience converts are not looking for �dilution� though, they are seeking rather the fullness of the faith and tend to seek out what are considered the more traditional aspects of the church�s thought and praxis. I will say what I have seen is that most �Protestantizations� as I would characterize them tend not to be the result of converts nor are they brought about by attempts to attract them. Often it is the converts who actively oppose them.

Again, without more concrete examples I can�t really speak to what you are saying. In the one example you gave, the priest was clearly wrong.

A most interesting statement! I have a high regard for the ROCOR as well. Do you feel the state church or the Old Calendar Church in Greece is most dependable and authoritative in matters of faith and Orthodox traditions?

What is scandalous about speaking the truth, or productive in hiding it? I would much rather lay issues on the table and discuss them. I think it�s far worse actually to allude to something but then cut off discussion of it. It simply creates an air of suspicion and intrigue.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I do not mean the Old Calendar Church of Greece.

I mean the new calendar Church of Greece whose clergy and monastics hold the tenets of faith, praxis, and traditions dear to them in an unchanging fashion.

Infact, they now bring these true teachings to the masses by being members of expert panels on American style television news programs in Greece on a host of topics. Many times they are up against secularists in some of the topic debates, but they are always given respectable air time.

In the most recent Greek media frenzy and debate concerning the unearthing of the intact and sweet smelling remains of a monk that died fifteen years ago, a Metropolitan that was on one of those panels said that this monk who is possibly a saint, like all saints, has reached a state of total 'theosis'--where both the soul AND the body have reached 'theosis'!

Further to this he also explained that besides this recent phenomenon concerning the monk, it would be up to the laity to ultimately proclaim him a saint through their witness to his holiness...

I have come to greatly respect the Church of Greece from personal observation...(and I will admit that I have an advantage in that I can observe them in the context of their own culture and language.)

In Christ,
Alice