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I'm pretty sure the Esteemed Orthodox Catholic isn't jesting. By the way, are you Byzantine or Roman Catholic of the Byzantine Rite?

At one time the church also said that Icons were wrong.

At one time the church persecuted the Jews for Christ's death.

The church has been wrong.

Many thought that those who stood for Icons were crazy; I'm sure there were many who thought those wanting Icons shouldn't speak out.

As I said, which you are failing to pick up on, yes, I may be wrong, but then again I may be right.

Let's just call a peace. No one can know for sure until we reach the other side.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

I'm an oddball, sort of. I am Byzantine attached to the RCC, but I consider myself Byzantine first. Meaning, if the Byzantine Church disappeared I would belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Roman Rite.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

Dear Mike,

As a Greek Orthodox, I need to tell you that you are dead wrong about your ideas concerning the belief in and the efficacy of prayer for the dead.

However, since you are Byzantine Catholic, I will let our esteemed Dr. Alex Roman convince you of the error of your belief.

Listen to him, because he is a man of great knowledge and you could not possibly learn at the feet of a better and more down to earth teacher, Orthodox OR Catholic!

Sincerely,
Alice, Moderator

Alex, et al.,

OK, let's try this from a different perspective. Let me tell you my theological thought regarding this, and you tell me where I am wrong. As I said, I am willing to admit that I am wrong, but I have to be given proof. Saying, "this is Tradition" doesn't work, since Tradition isn't proof, it just sounds like Tevye arguing with his daughters.

Macabees, where the praying for the dead comes from, is OT, before the Resurrection. At that time souls went to Sheol, which was the holding area -- neither heaven nor hell. Christ shattered the doors to Sheol and released the souls of the departed. This leaves only two places ever mentioned in Scripture - heaven and hell.

Christ spoke of souls going to heaven or hell, Lu 16:26* "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

He also spoke to the theif crucified next to Him, saying: Lu 23:43 �Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.�

Finally, Paul does mention different levels to heaven, 2Co 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows." But he never mentions levels to hell, or what the levels are.

Now, that said, please teach me where I am wrong.

Slava Issusu Christu,

mike

Dear Alex you said:

"The Church has always prayed for the dead and it teaches that such prayer helps bring the souls of those who are not yet ready for heaven closer to God."

I say:

The Patristic Fathers said that we will go from 'glory' to 'glory'. In other words, when a person attains deification, they will steadily progress in their vision of the uncreated Light, (Kingdom of God). Since this progress is infinite, we even pray for our Theotokos and the saints. So regardless, we pray for everyone, those here on earth and those in the other places...wherever that may be.

In Patristic theology, standing still is regarded as falling. St. Gregory Palamas said: "This vision of God has both a beginning and things after the beginning, varying in darkness and clarity; but there is no end at all, for its progress is infinite.

Zenovia

Litany for the Deceased

Priest:
Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Thy great mercy, we beseech Thee: hear us, and have mercy.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
Furthermore we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the servant(s) of God (name-s of the deceased), departed from this life, and that Thou wilt pardon all his (or her or their) sins, both voluntary and involuntary.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
That the Lord God will establish his (or her or their) soul(s) where the just repose.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (three times)

Priest:
The mercies of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, and the remission of his (or her or their) sins, we ask of Christ, or King Immortal and our God.

People:
Grant this, O Lord.

Priest:
Let us pray to the Lord.

People:
Lord, have mercy. (one time)

Priest:
O God of spirits, and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death by death, and overthrown the Devil, and hast bestowed life upon Thy world: do Thou Thyself, O Lord, grant rest to the soul(s) of Thy departed servant(s), (name-s of the deceased), in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing have fled away. As the gracious God, Who lovest mankind, pardon every transgression which he (or she or they) has (or have) committed, whether by word, or deed, or thought. For Thou alone art without sin, and Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth. For Thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of Thy departed servant(s) (name-s of the deceased). O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe gory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine All-Holy, and Good and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

People:
Amen.

Dear Mike,

Our Lord also said that if we listen to the Apostles and the Church, then we listen to Him, no?

But be that as it may, it seems that you MAY be hung up on a Protestant interpretation of Scripture - if I'm wrong about this, then I'm wrong.

Your argument against this Church doctrine is based on disagreements the Church has overcome in the past.

First of all, with respect to icons - the Church NEVER condemned their veneration. This was done by an heretical council convened by iconoclasts and an iconoclastic emperor.

The Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ won out and condemned this council and its ideas on icon-veneration.

As for persecuting the Jews, the Church has NEVER officially sanctioned such persecution in the way it would establish doctrine on praying for the dead.

NEVER! That certain Christians etc. did this and that certain Fathers were implicated with such sentiments does not make it an official Church position.

Perhaps Christians should just "chuck" the New Testament as a whole because the very idea of Christ's crucifixion could potentially lead to anti-semitism - ridiculous, don't you think?

But these are items for another thread. They fulfill no logical function in the argument over prayer for the dead.

Time, agreed, has nothing to do here because the dead are outside of that constraint.

Ultimately, we accept that the Church is the Body of Christ, founded by Christ through His Apostles.

Just as the Holy Spirit came to rest on the Son at Jesus' Baptism, so too does the Spirit, from Pentecost, come to rest on His Body, which is the Church, and will lead the Church into all truth.

It is that same Church, by both word of doctrine and ancient liturgical practice lasting until the present, that instructs us to pray for the dead.

Nowhere in Scripture is there ANY verse that could contradict this. That it is not developed in Scripture - well, many other things about Church doctrine and life aren't either.

Including the number of books of the New Testament - whose number ONLY a decision of the Church established to be 27.

The New Testament is a Church book and given to the Church to interpret for us.

If the Church takes the Bible and Tradition and teaches us to pray for the dead (which to me and many others is quite reasonable, given the fact of penance for our sins), then we are to obey the Church - in so doing we obey Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Your views or mine on this matter are really immaterial.

Alex

Dear Mike you said:

"At one time the church persecuted the Jews for Christ's death."

I say:

I don't believe the 'Church' ever persecuted the Jews. I know that in Spain, the Jews that had converted to Christianity and continued to secretly retain their Jewish beliefs were persecuted by the Inquisition. Not as Jews though, but as heretics, and the punishment came from the state, never from the Church.

As for the Byzantine Empire, (a Christian theocracy), certain crusaders entering Constantinople found a temple that was not dedicated to our Triune God. Now it's not mentioned whether it was a Muslim or Jewish temple. But the temple did exist, showing that the Jews and Muslims were free to practice their religion.

What is mentioned in the writings of the time, is that the crusaders became so scandalized that they set it on fire, and by doing so, burned part of the city with it.

If the Jews were persecuted in the rest of Europe, it probably had to do with the economic conditions of that specific time and place. It certainly had nothing to do with Church policy.

As for Scriptures and tradition, one must realize that it was the Fathers of the Church that determined what writings should become part of the Bible, and which one's should not. If one is to deny what the Church says in all it's aspects, that person must also deny then the Scriptures...don't you think?

Zenovia

Alex,

I'm not hung up on Scripture as a Prot. would be, but Tradition must hold to Scripture, not depart from it. What I am trying to understand is, what seems to me, a departure between the NT and Tradition. I've cited the passages where I find the conflict. Can you address those so that I can understand them in light of Tradition?

Semantics. It is not the church of today that condemned, but the church of those times. Yes, that is not our current Church, but had they won it would have been the church.

Dear Mike,

I think what Dr. Alex, Zenovia and the others are trying to say is this:

There is much more to the teaching authority of the Church than Scripture. There is Tradition. And the Tradition includes Scriptures (which can teach us a lot) and Liturgy (which can also teach us a lot) and the Fathers (who can certainly teach us a lot) and the Mysteries and so on. The Holy Spirit is always infusing and uniting the Church to Christ, and Tradition is the living record of that.

And, it has always been part of the Tradition of the Church to pray for the dead.

Part of that includes praying for people who are too good for hell but not pure enough for heaven. For a modern analogy (from C.S. Lewis), it is like taking off one's muddy boots before entering a home. And although East and West can disagree about the mechanics of purification of souls after death, both agree that it is fundamentally a tremendous mercy of God --from His infinite love-- who gave us the commandment to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." With the possible exception of the Theotokos, all of us have failed at that commandment; yet God allows for the purification of our souls who love Him but who are still not yet perfect. That's all this means.

God loves us so much that He will "clean us up" in the next life if we failed to get completely clean in this life, so we can live with Him forever in perfect happiness. For God is good and He loves mankind.

-- John

Dear John,

Actually, I'm not trying to say that, I DID say that and Mike won't accept it!

Alex

Dear Mike,

O.K., I'll try and respond to your legitimate queries. If I fail again, perhaps one of our priests or deacons here could address your questions, as I'm not a trained theologian - just pretending to be (joking!) .

As for the council that opposed icon veneration, let's remember that, at one time, about two-thirds of the entire Church was dragged into the heresy of Arianism i.e. that Christ was not God, equal to the Father.

Yet, that didn't stop Athanasius from opposing this heresy and also all those bishops and faithful who were infected by it.

To leave the Orthodox faith is to be outside the Church of Christ, as we know.

In addition, St Maximos the Confessor absolutely refused to accept what he knew to be a Monothelite compromise on the subject of the union of the two Natures of Christ.

Interestingly enough, it was the Monothelite compromise that unified, at that time, the Pope of Rome with the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs, the Oriental Patriarchs AND the Assyrian Patriarch of Seleucia-Ctesiphon. The Church was truly "one" but it was a unity based on heterodox falsehood.

St Maximos, like St Athanasius, "faced the world" in their defence of Orthodoxy of faith - and the Holy Spirit used them to destroy heresy and to return and renew everyone to the true faith and Church.

That is not semantics, my friend, that is church history and a part of our doctrine that even if an angel is to come down from heaven and was to tell us about a different doctrine than that which was handed down to us from Christ and the Apostles - we are to reject it. But I know you know that.

Concerning the particular judgement that occurs after a person's death, we receive some indications from Scripture about what happens.

For example, in Luke 16:22, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it is said that Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. In Luke 12:20, the parable of the foolish rich man, he is told that "this night thy soul shall be required of thee. St John Chrysostom interprets this to mean that the evil powers will "take his soul."

There are other references such as Matthew 13:49 and 1 Peter 5:8 and the air itself is filled with the spirits of evil under the heavens wherein the "prince of the power of the air" dwells as in Ephesians 6:12).

From ancient times, the Fathers of the Church depicted the path of the soul after death as apath through vast spiritual expanses where the dark powers seek to devour those who are weak spiritually and where there is a need to be defended against them by heavenly angels and supported by the prayer of the living members of the Church.

The Fathers of the Church that affirm prayer for the dead include St Ephraim the Syrian, St Athanasius the Great, St Macarius the Great, ST Basil the Great, ST John Chrysostom and others.

St Cyril of Alexandria developed this eschatology in his "Homily on the Departure of the Soul." ST Macarius of Alexandria was given to see, in a vision, how the soul spends what, in our time, is forty days after death which is why the Eastern Church prays for the soul of the reposed in an especial manner for forty days after death, family and friends pray the psalms for that one etc.

In the Epistle of the Eastern Patriarchs on the Orthodox Faith in paragraph 18, it is affirmed:

We believe that the souls of the dead are in a state of blessedness or torment according to their deeds. After being separated from the body, they immediately ass over either to joy or into sorrow and grief. However, they do not feel either complete blessedness or complete torment.

The Orthodox Church understands "gehenna" as the condition AFTER the Last Judgement when both death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as in Revelation 20:15.

For complete blessedness or complete torment each one receives after the General Resurrection, when the soul is reunited with the body in which it lived in virtue or in vice."

The Fathers of the Church affirm that the torments of sinners before the Last Judgement have a preparatory character. These torments can be eased and EVEN taken away by the prayers of the Church, as we read further in paragraph 18 of the above Orthodox Epistle.

The fallen spirits are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness in hell until the judgement of the great day as in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6.

Bedee, bedee, bedee, that's all (from me) folks!

Alex

This is exactly what I have been saying...that the Church has made mistakes in the past. The "semantics" comment was in reference to your statement that the church has never outlawed Icons but that heretics did. Yes, they are heretics (now), but at the time they were the church. I think we both agree here.

As to the rest (prayer for the dead), now I understand the theology behind it. That is all I have been asking for since this whole thing began. Thank you. Simply saying "it's Tradition" isn't enough, I need to know the theology behind it, just that type of person. I refuse to accept things blindly.


Is there an English translation of his homily? I would love to read it.

Slava Issusu Christu

mike

Dear Mike,

It may be somewhere on the internet, but I once had a psalter that had the text of St Cyril's homily . . . now you've got me thinking about who I lent that psalter to and why I don't have it back as yet . . .

Cheers!